So kria's wings aren't small like people suspected.
Accidental dramatic unfurling. Gotta love it.
LOL WOOPS
Quote from: AndersW on April 19, 2007, 11:42:11 PM
So kria's wings aren't small like people suspected.
Anyone who read Abel's Story would know that; her wings were revealed in that a while ago, as well as the nature of her amulet.
I do enjoy the reason she keeps her wings hidden. She and Abel have really cool wings, I like them a lot. Too bad we probably won't see them too much >> They look good though.
Is not learning something after 400 years a problem with short term or long term memory?
I wonder what makes that morphing amulet of her's work. On her tie it wouldn't always be touching her skin, so it must just need to be close. But then it doesn't work when it's near by in her... purse? Handbag! Ah well, it's just magical like that; that's the awesome thing about magic, it's magical.
How, exactly, is that bra attached? I think there's a cartoon rule for that, but I can't remember what.
You all know that Amber just wanted to draw a picture of wings exploding out of clothing.
And to lighten the mood.
... even further.
I'm guessing something big may be about to happen. (ie-drama-rama)
Quote from: Titanium Dragon on April 19, 2007, 11:49:10 PMI do enjoy the reason she keeps her wings hidden. She and Abel have really cool wings, I like them a lot. Too bad we probably won't see them too much >>
Perhaps not. Unless Lorenda a)gets a patch from Jy, or b)comes to terms with herself in her own right, she might just wind-up with using the amulet herself, so Kria might not be using it herself anymore.
But not likely.
EDIT:
Quote from: superluser on April 19, 2007, 11:51:57 PM
How, exactly, is that bra attached? I think there's a cartoon rule for that, but I can't remember what.
Well it seems to me that that's an open-backed shirt, meaning designed for wings. Which may mean that Kria moves about by air often. As for the bra? probably specially made. The jacket is just to protect against chills ^-^ but... then wouldn't one need it while in the drafts then?
Hmm funny that this comic should come out at a time when i'm feeling bad about how bad I am at drawing wings...
Its kinda like having god poke you in the face with a stick and go "Ha ha you suck!". It makes me sad,
but still i cant wait to see what happens next!
BTW i think the bra is still kinda tangled in the two other shirts she was wearing that are still hanging from her arms.
EDIT: (also by bra i just assume you mean the black overshirt she was wearin that looks very bra-like now)
Quote from: Amber Williams on April 19, 2007, 11:57:40 PM...what bra?
Oh, I see. That's the front of her jacket. Odd that the threads holding the button, the button itself, and the fabric in the front of the jacket and shirt all seem to be stronger than the fabric in the back. If I were Kria, I'd never go to that tailor again. :P
(Don't worry. I do this to Looney Tunes, as well)
Quote from: Titanium Dragon on April 20, 2007, 12:01:00 AM:giggle
Yes, yes. I'm not touching that one with a ten foot pole.
Quote from: Amber Williams on April 19, 2007, 11:57:40 PM
Quote from: superluser on April 19, 2007, 11:51:57 PM
How, exactly, is that bra attached?
...what bra?
Well of course there's that too then, I just wasn't going to say it.
I dont understand why women even wear bras... I'm pretty sure straight guys like ladies who dont wear bras. I personally wouldnt wear something that made me look less attractive, but its just my opinion of which might be similar to kria's.
Quote from: Rythak on April 20, 2007, 12:13:54 AM
I dont understand why women even wear bras... I'm pretty sure straight guys like ladies who dont wear bras. I personally wouldnt wear something that made me look less attractive, but its just my opinion of which might be similar to kria's.
Cause when girls bounce, it can seriously hurt? Aesthetically speaking, it helps them stay upwards?
Quote from: Rythak on April 20, 2007, 12:13:54 AMI dont understand why women even wear bras... I'm pretty sure straight guys like ladies who dont wear bras. I personally wouldnt wear something that made me look less attractive, but its just my opinion of which might be similar to kria's.
Well, I feel that beauty is something that can't be judged by someone's physical characteristics. Not everybody feels that way, though, and there are some bras that make women appear more in keeping with contemporary ideals of beauty. Wonderbra, for example. (If we're going be using artificial devices to make people look prettier, I think people ought to invest in alcohol, rather than bras)
Plus, I hear bras are great for posture and they reduce the strain on your back muscles, leading to decreased incidence of lower back pain.
Quote from: Rythak on April 20, 2007, 12:13:54 AM
I dont understand why women even wear bras... I'm pretty sure straight guys like ladies who dont wear bras. I personally wouldnt wear something that made me look less attractive, but its just my opinion of which might be similar to kria's.
Depends on the breast size and purpose. Sports Bras exist for a reason.
Those with D+ sizes have considerable problems like them getting in the way and backaches and droop later in life.
Smaller have fewer problems and a lesser need for support as the size goes down.
Ohhhhhh... I never thought of it like that, that auctually makes alot of sence. :shifty
bye bye jacket :<
other clothes... still there. Yup.
Quote from: Aridas Soulfire on April 20, 2007, 12:28:45 AM
bye bye jacket :<
other clothes... still there. Yup.
Ever think about how when the hulk transforms everything rips off but his pants? Hmm...
Quote from: Rythak on April 20, 2007, 12:30:12 AM
Quote from: Aridas Soulfire on April 20, 2007, 12:28:45 AM
bye bye jacket :<
other clothes... still there. Yup.
Ever think about when the hulk transforms how everything rips off but his pants? Hmm...
Hulk get Horny? :U
Would it not be painful to rip through the seamless part of a shirt with your wings? I always thought of wings as being the most delicate part of a body seeing as how there meant to be very light and easily moved. Seems like it would hurt to me... as well as other things busting through articles of clothing during transformations... If ya catch my drift ;)
Jeez, I edit/modify my posts too much.
Clothes are a hazzard flamable source of irony for your characters Amber!! :U
Forget the jacket. It'll be a pleasure to everyone.
When shapeshifting, either shapeshifting clothes, or no clothes at all. That's simply how it works.
Wait, is she wearing a backless button shirt? I'm having trouble seeing how that works.
Quote from: Rythak on April 20, 2007, 12:13:54 AM
I dont understand why women even wear bras... I'm pretty sure straight guys like ladies who dont wear bras. I personally wouldnt wear something that made me look less attractive, but its just my opinion of which might be similar to kria's.
from my ex-girlfriend
"Women like that keep sagging lower and lower, and won't notice until their boobs hit the floor!"
TAKE THAT, DEAD HORSE!
Also, if wings were delicate and fragile, human-powered flight would be significantly easier. Wings have to be made to hold the entire weight of the creature they're holding and then some, or flight will be strictly impossible, and they've got to put up with the punishment of flappings, plus the muscles required to beat wings hard enough to maintain powered flight are of a level that would make Arnold Schwarzenegger(that's actually IN my spell-check!?) look like a pencil-necked geek. Massive, massive power there, moreso for someone Kria's size(that is, larger than your average full-grown bald eagle), especially with wings that small. The problem is that since wings are designed to support the force of air over a large area, they're highly susceptible to piercing or slashing damage, neither of which is present when tearing one's suit-coat to shreds via absent-minded amulet removal.
Quote from: Manawolf on April 20, 2007, 01:56:04 AMWhen shapeshifting, either shapeshifting clothes, or no clothes at all. That's simply how it works.
Except that Kria's a demon, and I don't think that they can shapeshift.
Quote from: Manawolf on April 20, 2007, 01:56:04 AMWait, is she wearing a backless button shirt? I'm having trouble seeing how that works.
She could be wearing a dickey. Might explain why her cuffs and collars don't match. (I know that that's her fur, not a cuff. It just gives me a chance to use that phrase literally.)
Quote from: Fuyudenki on April 20, 2007, 02:10:56 AMAlso, if wings were delicate and fragile, human-powered flight would be significantly easier.
There are multiple types of wings, and they appear to have evolved independently. Shorter, insectlike wings are have very different characteristics than longer, birdlike wings, the non-feathered, batlike wings, and the pterosaur wings. I remember that from one of the standardized tests that they would give to evaluate whether or not it was a ``Why Johnny Can't Read'' school. I also see it mentioned in Wikipedia.
I wouldn't worry too much about Kria hurting herself from fabric. She can take a normal spiked mace to the face without flinching.
Quote from: Fuyudenki on April 20, 2007, 02:10:56 AM
Also, if wings were delicate and fragile, human-powered flight would be significantly easier. Wings have to be made to hold the entire weight of the creature they're holding and then some, or flight will be strictly impossible, and they've got to put up with the punishment of flappings, plus the muscles required to beat wings hard enough to maintain powered flight are of a level that would make Arnold Schwarzenegger(that's actually IN my spell-check!?) look like a pencil-necked geek. Massive, massive power there, moreso for someone Kria's size(that is, larger than your average full-grown bald eagle), especially with wings that small. The problem is that since wings are designed to support the force of air over a large area, they're highly susceptible to piercing or slashing damage, neither of which is present when tearing one's suit-coat to shreds via absent-minded amulet removal.
Insert "now you know" star here?
Quote from: Amber Williams on April 20, 2007, 02:47:32 AM
I wouldn't worry too much about Kria hurting herself from fabric. She can take a normal spiked mace to the face without flinching.
Demons due tend towards durability, normally from having scaled skin or a tougher hide. Of course, it's all a matter of finding the right kind of thing to attack them with.
As for the shapeshifting, she just got her wings back after taking off the amulet. I think that counts as a form of shapeshifting.
Quote from: Manawolf on April 20, 2007, 01:56:04 AM
Forget the jacket. It'll be a pleasure to everyone.
When shapeshifting, either shapeshifting clothes, or no clothes at all. That's simply how it works.
Wait, is she wearing a backless button shirt? I'm having trouble seeing how that works.
I note the collar extends all teh way around her neck, not just to the front. If the collar is of strong materials, it could hold up the weight of the rest of the ensemble.
Also, you should look at some of the gravity defying strapless, low backed gowns that can be found on the market. Clothing designers for those have to have degrees in structural engineering or something. :.
Quote from: Rythak on April 20, 2007, 12:13:54 AM
I dont understand why women even wear bras... I'm pretty sure straight guys like ladies who dont wear bras. I personally wouldnt wear something that made me look less attractive, but its just my opinion of which might be similar to kria's.
Because it's more comfortable maybe? And personally I have a tendency to impulsively run.
Quote from: Kenji on April 20, 2007, 12:18:46 AM
Quote from: Rythak on April 20, 2007, 12:13:54 AM
I dont understand why women even wear bras... I'm pretty sure straight guys like ladies who dont wear bras. I personally wouldnt wear something that made me look less attractive, but its just my opinion of which might be similar to kria's.
Cause when girls bounce, it can seriously hurt? Aesthetically speaking, it helps them stay upwards?
Point FKK.
Quote from: Rythak on April 20, 2007, 12:28:05 AM
Ohhhhhh... I never thought of it like that, that auctually makes alot of sence. :shifty
good.
Quote from: Manawolf on April 20, 2007, 01:56:04 AM
Wait, is she wearing a backless button shirt? I'm having trouble seeing how that works.
It could be a fakey. Solid throughout the front, but with buttons sewn on.
Quote from: Reese Tora on April 20, 2007, 03:10:12 AM
Quote from: Manawolf on April 20, 2007, 01:56:04 AM
Forget the jacket. It'll be a pleasure to everyone.
When shapeshifting, either shapeshifting clothes, or no clothes at all. That's simply how it works.
Wait, is she wearing a backless button shirt? I'm having trouble seeing how that works.
I note the collar extends all teh way around her neck, not just to the front. If the collar is of strong materials, it could hold up the weight of the rest of the ensemble.
Also, you should look at some of the gravity defying strapless, low backed gowns that can be found on the market. Clothing designers for those have to have degrees in structural engineering or something. :.
You beat me to it >.< XD
Quote from: superluser on April 20, 2007, 02:12:31 AM
Quote from: Fuyudenki on April 20, 2007, 02:10:56 AMAlso, if wings were delicate and fragile, human-powered flight would be significantly easier.
There are multiple types of wings, and they appear to have evolved independently. Shorter, insectlike wings are have very different characteristics than longer, birdlike wings, the non-feathered, batlike wings, and the pterosaur wings. I remember that from one of the standardized tests that they would give to evaluate whether or not it was a ``Why Johnny Can't Read'' school. I also see it mentioned in Wikipedia.
Granted, though also note that insect wings have to hold a much, much smaller mass than bird wings. Most insects aren't subject to falling damage(the exceptions being HUGE!).
Quote from: Reese Tora on April 20, 2007, 03:10:12 AM
Also, you should look at some of the gravity defying strapless, low backed gowns that can be found on the market. Clothing designers for those have to have degrees in structural engineering or something. :.
Oh yeah, they sell those to anime characters all the time. I even got an "antigravity bra" for a character in my own comic.
People in this world break their clothes alot faster than a normal schoolchild would...Like an angry woman..
Superb. I can see a market for clothes with poppers or something in the back so that an emergency shapeshift (which this is, technically) wouldn't be quite so damaging. A little concealment magic to hide them and it would look just like a normal jacket.
At least she didn't rip the jacket and uncover a really aweful hue of Purple shirt.
Kira smash!
Quote from: Amber Williams on April 20, 2007, 02:47:32 AM
I wouldn't worry too much about Kria hurting herself from fabric. She can take a normal spiked mace to the face without flinching.
That reminds me of the scene in Kung Pow (the asian movie spoof) where all those people are beating and kicking on the main bad guy and he just stands there like nothing happens. (Course, the real funny part is when the protagonist tries to do the same thing with dreadful results)
a lot of clothing would probably have to be made with intentional weak points where it would automatically rip in a clean line, allowing you to put it back together in a snap if you have to change at a moments notice but don't wanna buy a new wardrobe every time. think like those tearaway tuxedos, but planned so that the pieces it comes apart in allow the nessicary appendages. the downside is this means any horny guy stupid enough to can easily rip half of a dress off in one tug, and with a significant portion of the female population being like alexi and lorenda this would lead to many casualties amongst horny guys with low IQs
although this still reminds me of how my wife had a chainmaile bra, the ultimate in support and comfort and coolness, and broke it when she grew a few cup sizes. think about it- if STEEL cannot contain the bustitude of a woman how do you expect a flimsy contraption of elastic, pokey wire, and tissue paper to even stand a chance?
if i ever get the materials to get started i will become a lengere armorer because apperantly the need for metal undergarments is huge and profitable.
QuoteI have seen the promised land, and the promised land needs an E cup.
Anyone else notice that Kira forgot to collect her equipment?
Not that that is going to be a plot point...
Problem: Wings hard to draw.
Solution:Kria needs Rocket Boots!
Poor Kira .. why are the simplest things always teh hardest :B
Quote from: Brunhidden da Muse on April 20, 2007, 08:13:40 AM
a lot of clothing would probably have to be made with intentional weak points where it would automatically rip in a clean line, allowing you to put it back together in a snap if you have to change at a moments notice but don't wanna buy a new wardrobe every time. think like those tearaway tuxedos, but planned so that the pieces it comes apart in allow the nessicary appendages. the downside is this means any horny guy stupid enough to can easily rip half of a dress off in one tug, and with a significant portion of the female population being like alexi and lorenda this would lead to many casualties amongst horny guys with low IQs
although this still reminds me of how my wife had a chainmaile bra, the ultimate in support and comfort and coolness, and broke it when she grew a few cup sizes. think about it- if STEEL cannot contain the bustitude of a woman how do you expect a flimsy contraption of elastic, pokey wire, and tissue paper to even stand a chance?
if i ever get the materials to get started i will become a lengere armorer because apperantly the need for metal undergarments is huge and profitable.
QuoteI have seen the promised land, and the promised land needs an E cup.
Well look in the strip... theres no clean rip there. Just little pieces flyin off. One thing I did notice is that none of the pieces were the white color of her undersirt which seems to have not taken any damage... maybe it already had wing holes or a burst point.. even when you look on the ground of the last pannel none of those shreddies of clothing are white.
there is a problem between the linking of 776 and 777 but other than that I have no complaints. here's a question, was the shirt underneath the jacket a Dickie? I only ask because there is the possibility the jacket prevented her from being completely topless.
Just wanted to say, Amber, the wings look GORGEOUS, and I hope your whimpering hand doesn't prevent you from drawing them /too/ often.
Quote from: Shadowcatcher on April 20, 2007, 08:12:39 AM
Quote from: Amber Williams on April 20, 2007, 02:47:32 AM
I wouldn't worry too much about Kria hurting herself from fabric. She can take a normal spiked mace to the face without flinching.
That reminds me of the scene in Kung Pow (the asian movie spoof) where all those people are beating and kicking on the main bad guy and he just stands there like nothing happens. (Course, the real funny part is when the protagonist tries to do the same thing with dreadful results)
*Charles quotes* I shall now be known as... Betty! :giggle Very silly movie... made whilst they were under the inflence of certain substances, me thinks. ;)
*Charline smirks at the bra comments* We creatures are made of firmer stuff! We don't jiggle and bounce like poor being females! Watch! *removes top and jumps up and down* See?
*Charles and Alondro* Boo-behs... :dribble
You confuse me Alondro...
Quote from: Amber Williams on April 20, 2007, 02:47:32 AM
I wouldn't worry too much about Kria hurting herself from fabric. She can take a normal spiked mace to the face without flinching.
There's no part of that sentence I didn't like.
Quote from: Brunhidden da Muse on April 20, 2007, 08:13:40 AM...
with a significant portion of the female population being like alexi and lorenda this would lead to many casualties amongst horny guys with low IQs
Hence, there wouldn't
be any horny guys with low IQs. They'd all be dead!
Quote from: Gildedtongue on April 20, 2007, 09:13:21 AM
Anyone else notice that Kira forgot to collect her equipment?
Not that that is going to be a plot point...
Obviously, it's like Lexsi's mallet, and can be summoned or un-summoned at will.
Quote from: Gildedtongue on April 20, 2007, 09:13:21 AMAnyone else notice that Kira forgot to collect her equipment?
As someone else pointed out, it's conveniently being stored in Hammerspace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammerspace).
Quote from: GabrielsThoughts on April 20, 2007, 11:11:06 AMwas the shirt underneath the jacket a Dickie?
All right! All right! So I misspelled it (http://clockworkmansion.com/forum/index.php?topic=2621.msg108023#msg108023)!
Quote from: GabrielsThoughts on April 20, 2007, 11:11:06 AM
here's a question, was the shirt underneath the jacket a Dickie? I only ask because there is the possibility the jacket prevented her from being completely topless.
I just noticed the detail, but if you look really closly you can see the white shirt wrapping around her back towards her tail. So dicky or backless shirt, like a backless dress someone said does seems to be the answer.
:) kotoos to amber for the details, now kira's shirt can't go flying away
:< Though I guess some people wodn't be upset if that happend. :giggle
Quote from: Reese Tora on April 20, 2007, 03:10:12 AM
Clothing designers for those have to have degrees in structural engineering or something. :.
It's already been done: look at this classic study from about 50 years ago on "A Stress Analysis of a Strapless Evening Gown (http://gendertree.com/a_stress_analysis_of_a_strapless.htm)" ;)
Quote from: Sienna Maiu - M T on April 20, 2007, 03:14:34 AM
Quote from: Rythak on April 20, 2007, 12:13:54 AM
I dont understand why women even wear bras... I'm pretty sure straight guys like ladies who dont wear bras. I personally wouldnt wear something that made me look less attractive, but its just my opinion of which might be similar to kria's.
Because it's more comfortable maybe? And personally I have a tendency to impulsively run.
Not only that, but most bras are designed to make your breasts more attractive because they give them shape.
Unless you have smaller boobs, breasts without support will just hang down. It's seriously just two lumps of fat hanging off of your chest. Without bras, not only will it end in back problems and pain when you run, but it'll ....just look like two lumps of fat hanging off your chest. Bra's will lift them up, and give them shape so that they actually look like the breast that men find attractive.
I would also care to point out that women don't always wear things because men find it attractive. A lot of the time, yeah. But somethings, just sometimes, we'll wear things because it's comfortable. I mean, I could just as easily say "I don't understand why women wear clothes. I mean, most straight men like women that're naked. Why would you wear something that makes you look less attractive?"
:B
Quote from: Amber Williams on April 20, 2007, 02:47:32 AM
I wouldn't worry too much about Kria hurting herself from fabric. She can take a normal spiked mace to the face without flinching.
Wow. How about a
+2 spiked mace of banishing?
I'm not exactly sure what the banishing would really do other than sound really cool. Unless its attempting to banish teeth from someones mouth. And since this isn't a game-system, the +2 serves no real purpose other to imply it has a modifier. There are enchanted weapons out there, some which probably could do some damage, but they tend to have practical enchantments on them.
That said, I should likely make mention that in Demonology 101 the Demon lifespan says that it's around 1,500 years. That tends to reflect Demons who don't fling themselves into battles yet are dying of old age. Most demons who are combat oriented tend to live a lot shorter lives for obvious reasons...however the flipside is they are a lot stronger and tougher than their older counterparts. As such, a demon who sees countless battles becomes harder to kill in the sense of "what doesnt kill them makes them stronger", where as longer-lived demons tend to be more magic oriented...however can be dropped pretty easily if you manage to actually hit them.
Quote from: Aleolus on April 20, 2007, 07:31:08 PM
Quote from: Amber Williams on April 20, 2007, 02:47:32 AM
I wouldn't worry too much about Kria hurting herself from fabric. She can take a normal spiked mace to the face without flinching.
Wow. How about a +2 spiked mace of banishing?
That's pretty pricey, and you didn't even include the cold iron and holy elements. Banishing also only works if the demon is from a different dimension. Seems every race in Furrae is from Furrae.
Quote from: SpottedKitty on April 20, 2007, 05:25:45 PM
..."A Stress Analysis of a Strapless Evening Gown" ;)
Yerg. I'm going to go non-stereotypical male, and just throw out that strapless dresses should not be worn.
A friend of mine wore a strapless dress at her 18th birthday party. The upper hemline rested at right about the bottom of where her breasts
usually sit. I emphasize usually, because her breasts themselves were under the upper hemline of the strapless dress, sagging down to her belly button. I'd like to also mention that she's actually quite shapely. Round where one should be round, thin where one should be thin, and soft, though firm, everywhere, and a very ample bust... except that the strapless dress dragged her down and flattened her out. Worst case of synthetic sag I think I've ever seen.
Verdict: bras make the women who wear them look about 1000x better by preserving shape and structure, and by keeping the breasts on the woman's
upper chest, where they belong.
Quote from: SpottedKitty on April 20, 2007, 05:25:45 PM
Quote from: Reese Tora on April 20, 2007, 03:10:12 AM
Clothing designers for those have to have degrees in structural engineering or something. :.
It's already been done: look at this classic study from about 50 years ago on "A Stress Analysis of a Strapless Evening Gown (http://gendertree.com/a_stress_analysis_of_a_strapless.htm)" ;)
I somewhat had that particular page in mind when I typed the above, though not the gumption to find and link to it. :animesweat
When She stretches out, She can become stressed out in body, clothing, and mind ...
Quote from: Zina on April 20, 2007, 06:37:47 PMI mean, I could just as easily say "I don't understand why women wear clothes. I mean, most straight men like women that're naked. Why would you wear something that makes you look less attractive?"
Won't touch this one, either, but I will point out that the penultimate statement is not always true, and leave the explanation to your imagination, much like how...aw, you figure it out.
Quote from: Manawolf on April 20, 2007, 10:33:38 PMBanishing also only works if the demon is from a different dimension. Seems every race in Furrae is from Furrae.
I think Mana just took someone to task for bringing otherworld elements into the DMFA universe. That is a burn.
Then again, tattoes and jewelry are considered clothing . While decoractive, they do not need to serve any useful function, and in some cultures , feel clothed in them ... That would lower the weight of a suit ...
Quote from: Amber Williams on April 20, 2007, 07:41:19 PM
I'm not exactly sure what the banishing would really do other than sound really cool. Unless its attempting to banish teeth from someones mouth.
Bad teeth! No come back to life! Stay dead! No cookie! (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_164.php)
Sorry. Apparently, I'm in the mood for stupid humor.
Quote from: Fuyudenki on April 20, 2007, 11:00:24 PM
Verdict: bras make the women who wear them look about 1000x better by preserving shape and structure, and by keeping the breasts on the woman's upper chest, where they belong.
... perhaps she should have invested in a strapless bra as well, then. Yes, they -do- exist...
True, I've seen ads for... one of those...(not that I've seen a whole bloody lot of bra ads), but seeing what little support the dress gave, I have doubts about how much they help.
Though to be fair, I did say "bras" in general, not "bras with straps," so I'm not discounting that. Personally, I would say it was poor planning.
Honestly, I can't imagine how comfortable anything you can't wear a bra with(swimsuits excepted) can be. I make it a point not to go commando, because it's just downright uncomfortable.(sometimes in the "this feels weird" sense, sometimes in the "@#$% OW!" sense.)