Well, she killed everyone in the city and ate their souls. (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_1970.php) Including those of her own children.
Can understand why she had a bit of a guilt trip there.
Also, let's face it - while Cyra is theoretically a "sympathetic" character, the reality is that her plan was to seduce someone and eat their soul in order to ascend. Given that she had no idea that M'Chek was doing what he was doing, it wasn't even heroic - it was, in fact, downright villainous. The fact that the victim was themselves a villain doesn't change that fact. Her "mistake" was that she ate more souls than she intended - but the original act was anything but good.
Honestly, after pulling a stunt like that, it's not surprising that so many people hated her.
Though I think she has a bit more perspective on it now and recognizes that what she wasn't doing was, in fact, malicious. (http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_1217.php)
Quote from: Titanium Dragon on February 17, 2020, 03:34:40 AM
[url=http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_1217.php]Though I think she has a bit more perspective on it now and recognizes that what she wasn't doing was, in fact, malicious. (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_1970.php)
I don't get the impression.
Imo she regrets the consequences but not the act of murdering someone and eating his soul for personal power itself.
You are right that Cyra is as evil as M'Chek and any form of sympathy for her is imo misplaced.
Maybe a bit far fetched, but isn't it possible that Cyra is running the same setup on the space station? It requires a crystal matrix of some sorts and convinently she provides power crystals...
Quote from: Ixal on February 17, 2020, 04:16:05 AM
Imo she regrets the consequences but not the act of murdering someone and eating his soul for personal power itself.
That's to be expected. Remember Biggs - this is exactly what he was complaining about. All Cyra did was the Might-Makes-Right Creature ideology writ large. To us, it's rightly reprehensible. But in the context of Furrae society, she was doing what everyone considers normal (even if they hate it). She just had a somewhat larger goal - immortality for herself, and a life of luxury for her children. And that goal backfired catastrophically. Even if she'd evacuated her from the city beforehand, she'd still have lost the city itself, which was a big part of the prize.
QuoteYou are right that Cyra is as evil as M'Chek and any form of sympathy for her is imo misplaced.
Not quite. Cyra wanted to destroy one person and take over. M'Chek set up a system where he destroyed millions, possibly billions of innocent people over a vast timescale. That doesn't excuse her from being evil, but it definitely makes her the lesser evil of the two.
You might potentially say that M'Chek was acting within the same framework, but I suspect that for the ideology to last as long as it has, the top-tier Dragons were stoking it and keeping it going. After all, if you can keep your potential rivals backstabbing each other, they'll be too busy to think about stabbing you. (If true, M'Chek kind of reaped the consequences there.)
Now, morals aside, this page raises a few interesting questions about the setup. The crystals set under the city - presumably the people were told they were there but served some more benign purpose. We've had electricity and telephony for less than two centuries and we still keep having problems with people digging up cables which are documented. Now you add a lattice of secret crystals and maybe tens of thousands of years of maintenance work on the city, and you'd have a problem.
The other interesting question is how Cyra learned to steal souls in the first place. This predates SAIA, so it's unlikely she learned outside the city. But I'm a little surprised that she was allowed to learn
within the city. Firstly I'd like to think that doing such stuff is extremely illegal within the city, but you'd also think that M'Chek would have banned the study of souls because that would potentially tip people off to the scam going on underfoot. You might for instance discover that the crystal harvesters are doing something similar to your soul-stealing spells. Or you might try to soul-trap a dying relative and discover that their soul's mysteriously gone AWOL.
Quote from: Tapewolf on February 17, 2020, 04:45:37 AM
Not quite. Cyra wanted to destroy one person and take over. M'Chek set up a system where he destroyed millions, possibly billions of innocent people over a vast timescale. That doesn't excuse her from being evil, but it definitely makes her the lesser evil of the two.
You might potentially say that M'Chek was acting within the same framework,
Yes, the framework was the same. Devouring peoples souls for power.
Sure, M'Chek consumed more souls, but also let those people live out their lives. Cyra straight out murdered someone to eat his soul. And if my suspicion of the station is true you couldn't even argue that Cyra did it just once. Even if not, we don't know if she wouldn't have done so again if she had the opportunity.
Still, there are a lot of similarities between the station and the city. Maybe its Cyras coping mechanism to recreate the city in spirit and be a good protector, maybe its the same soul sucking racket M'Chek had on a smaller scale. Maybe both.
Quote from: Ixal on February 17, 2020, 04:58:57 AM
Sure, M'Chek consumed more souls, but also let those people live out their lives. Cyra straight out murdered someone to eat his soul. And if my suspicion of the station is true you couldn't even argue that Cyra did it just once. Even if not, we don't know if she wouldn't have done so again if she had the opportunity.
Still, there are a lot of similarities between the station and the city. Maybe its Cyras coping mechanism to recreate the city in spirit and be a good protector, maybe its the same soul sucking racket M'Chek had on a smaller scale. Maybe both.
I think you're going to have to unpack that statement about the station.
I'd also find it rather difficult to believe that Cyra would do that, especially having seen the results first-hand. Between this now, and her earlier conversation with Dan, it sounds to me like a soul-stealing city is a line she wouldn't cross. I'd expect her to be a bit more "it was a brilliant scheme" if she was into that, rather than the "we never knew the horrors beneath the city" line she's taking on the previous page.
If anyone has a soul-stealing racket going on right now, I'd suspect Hizell. Not least because he's got his own private death-cultists, but also you have to wonder if this is how the top-tier dragons get to be as powerful as M'Check or Hizell.
Quote from: Tapewolf on February 17, 2020, 05:08:22 AM
Quote from: Ixal on February 17, 2020, 04:58:57 AM
Sure, M'Chek consumed more souls, but also let those people live out their lives. Cyra straight out murdered someone to eat his soul. And if my suspicion of the station is true you couldn't even argue that Cyra did it just once. Even if not, we don't know if she wouldn't have done so again if she had the opportunity.
Still, there are a lot of similarities between the station and the city. Maybe its Cyras coping mechanism to recreate the city in spirit and be a good protector, maybe its the same soul sucking racket M'Chek had on a smaller scale. Maybe both.
I think you're going to have to unpack that statement about the station.
I'd also find it rather difficult to believe that Cyra would do that, especially having seen the results first-hand. Between this now, and her earlier conversation with Dan, it sounds to me like a soul-stealing city is a line she wouldn't cross. I'd expect her to be a bit more "it was a brilliant scheme" if she was into that, rather than the "we never knew the horrors beneath the city" line she's taking on the previous page.
If anyone has a soul-stealing racket going on right now, I'd suspect Hizell. Not least because he's got his own private death-cultists, but also you have to wonder if this is how the top-tier dragons get to be as powerful as M'Check or Hizell.
I don't see any reason Cyra would not do that. She is not the nice mother figure she displays herself to be.
And when you declare yourself a guardian then its a slippery slope to do this. After all the more powerful you are the safer the community is. And its not as if the dead need their souls.
And Cyra has powerfull enemies and needs more power just in case Hizell finds her
Not sure about Hizell. So far this large scale soul eating was location based. So he would not get the souls of his followers that are out on a mission.
Quote from: Ixal on February 17, 2020, 05:21:27 AM
I don't see any reason Cyra would not do that. She is not the nice mother figure she displays herself to be.
There's also no motive for her to do so. She's already ascended, and at that point you generate your own energy. So much more than you need that it flows out to your descendants and makes them more powerful.
Also, given what we know about Clan Leader psychology, that notion she gave Dan - that before he arrived on the scene, she was going to end it all once they reached a new planet - that sounds pretty plausible to me. (EDIT: To clarify, if her plans involve giving these people a shiny new planet as a gift and then killing herself to atone for her sins, she's got absolutely no use for people's soul energy).
Quote from: Tapewolf on February 17, 2020, 05:30:28 AM
Quote from: Ixal on February 17, 2020, 05:21:27 AM
I don't see any reason Cyra would not do that. She is not the nice mother figure she displays herself to be.
There's also no motive for her to do so. She's already ascended, and at that point you generate your own energy. So much more than you need that it flows out to your descendants and makes them more powerful.
Also, given what we know about Clan Leader psychology, that notion she gave Dan - that before he arrived on the scene, she was going to end it all once they reached a new planet - that sounds pretty plausible to me.
That says it all really, the fact she was planning to take her own lifeafter making sure her space faring friends were safe on a new home as a form of penance says a lot more of her character than the assault on a dragon. you got to remember. most people in this world both fear and hate dragons. they set themselves up as demigods and are known to crush anything in their way. In their world, what Cyra did was a justifiable and noble crime in till it turned out he was doing would cause. well. this. Remember this is a world where people go to school in the hopes of becoming a adventurer to slay a dragon or a big demon and such for fame and fortune. its a world exactly what Biggs said, Might makes right. Really all a assault on a dragon says is that she's ambitious and greedy in this world, not evil.
Quote from: Ixal on February 17, 2020, 04:16:05 AM
You are right that Cyra is as evil as M'Chek and any form of sympathy for her is imo misplaced.
As evil as? I don't think so. There is a difference between killing one person and the industrial scale evil M'Chek had going on. Cyra wouldn't (intentionly) eat the souls of her own children for a start. If we say killers in this comic deserve no sympathy that's probably half the cast. Dan, Mab, Kria, Lorenda, D.P, Biggs, Wildy, Dest, Aary and Regina are all killers or have ordered someone's death.
Quote from: MT Hazard on February 17, 2020, 06:43:20 AM
Quote from: Ixal on February 17, 2020, 04:16:05 AM
You are right that Cyra is as evil as M'Chek and any form of sympathy for her is imo misplaced.
As evil as? I don't think so. There is a difference between killing one person and the industrial scale evil M'Chek had going on. Cyra wouldn't (intentionly) eat the souls of her own children for a start. If we say killers in this comic deserve no sympathy that's probably half the cast.Dan, Mab, Karia, Loranda, D.P, Biggs, Wildy, and so on are all killers or have ordered someone's death.
Murdering someone to eat his soul vs. industrial style waiting. It depends on how much emphasis you put on soul eating and how much on murder. Either way Cyra is far from being a good guy here.
That most of the cast are killers should give you to think about their moral compass and whom to root for.
Yeah, I'm confused here - what's wrong with eating someone's soul after they die? Is it meant to go somewhere else? Seems like a waste to just let it dissipate. :mowtongue
Quote from: GreenReaper on February 17, 2020, 08:12:29 AM
Yeah, I'm confused here - what's wrong with eating someone's soul after they die? Is it meant to go somewhere else? Seems like a waste to just let it dissipate. :mowtongue
Given the previous page, the way Cyra is talking about her father, and the way she was talking about this in Dan's earlier meeting, it looks to me like she
was expecting him to go somewhere else after he died. Otherwise, there's very little point in getting worked up about any of this. After all, her children at the time would be dead anyway by this point.
Well, when the undead were created they had their souls back too. So the souls go SOMEWHERE for at least a bit.
I'm intrigued by the soul stealing crystals themselves. If they were buried under the city rather than incorporated into it, they must have been powerful to snag souls from everyone who died in the city. Because given M'Chek's scheme, I doubt he was letting souls get away, which means that he needed the crystals to be able to reach 40+ stories up from the ground to grab them.
It also makes me wonder about the "size" of a soul...
Quote from: Cassi-kun on February 17, 2020, 10:55:38 AM
I'm intrigued by the soul stealing crystals themselves. If they were buried under the city rather than incorporated into it, they must have been powerful to snag souls from everyone who died in the city. Because given M'Chek's scheme, I doubt he was letting souls get away, which means that he needed the crystals to be able to reach 40+ stories up from the ground to grab them.
It also makes me wonder about the "size" of a soul...
Cyra's description makes it sound like there were loads of them buried at intervals to get enough coverage. I had also wondered if you could escape by dying in a tall building. Then again, if you can make each one cover a sphere with a 500m radius or something, it should cover most skyscrapers. You could also have a planning ordinance to limit the height of buildings...
Where it gets interesting is that as the city expands, you'd have to sink more of these things into the ground, without the populace knowing why. Again, you'd need some kind of cover story for what they're supposedly doing.
I tend to find that in any conflict, there is no black or white morality and you simply have to side with those that are the least dark shade of grey. While Cyra's actions may have been morally reprehensible by our standards, there's no indication that they were regarded as being just as morally wrong at the time. Perhaps when running a major city, getting backstabbed by your closest advisor (possibly even with a soul-eating in the bargain) was regarded as just being a natural hazard of leadership. Running a massive scam like the one M'Chek was doing was beyond evil, I have no words to describe just how horrifying his actions were. Besides, Cyra at least feels some remorse for her actions, perhaps she even feels remorse for eating M'Chek's soul (although I wouldn't blame her if she didn't) and earlier in the story, she fully admitted that her actions were not done with the best of intentions. I honestly don't see Cyra as evil. Misguided and repentant? Yes. Outright evil? No.
Quote from: Eboreg on February 17, 2020, 11:58:07 AM
I tend to find that in any conflict, there is no black or white morality and you simply have to side with those that are the least dark shade of grey. While Cyra's actions may have been morally reprehensible by our standards, there's no indication that they were regarded as being just as morally wrong at the time. Perhaps when running a major city, getting backstabbed by your closest advisor (possibly even with a soul-eating in the bargain) was regarded as just being a natural hazard of leadership. Running a massive scam like the one M'Chek was doing was beyond evil, I have no words to describe just how horrifying his actions were. Besides, Cyra at least feels some remorse for her actions, perhaps she even feels remorse for eating M'Chek's soul (although I wouldn't blame her if she didn't) and earlier in the story, she fully admitted that her actions were not done with the best of intentions. I honestly don't see Cyra as evil. Misguided and repentant? Yes. Outright evil? No.
Either soul eating is evil, then both Cyra and M'Chek are, or it isn't in which case M'Chek was a nice guy and Cyra a backstabbing murderer.
Either way she is more black than white.
Edit: I also don't see any remorse from her, just regret that it didn't turn out like she wanted.
In the first frame she basically blames M'Chek for not having safeguards in place in case of his death. That she shouldn't have murdered him doesn't seem to cross her mind.
Also, if she wanted to repent she could given herself up to the dragons to prevent or possibly stop the war.
Most Cubi are evil, I'd say. That doesn't necessarily mean that they're cartoonish villains, but murder and soul eating are acts of evil, just as much as Dark Pegasus is evil for his trying to conquer H-Ann and destroying Undead.
Jyrras's mom and Kria are evil too, which tends to get overlooked, though Kria is sometimes a cartoonish villain with the eating people.
Quote from: Ixal on February 17, 2020, 12:07:52 PM
Quote from: Eboreg on February 17, 2020, 11:58:07 AM
I tend to find that in any conflict, there is no black or white morality and you simply have to side with those that are the least dark shade of grey. While Cyra's actions may have been morally reprehensible by our standards, there's no indication that they were regarded as being just as morally wrong at the time. Perhaps when running a major city, getting backstabbed by your closest advisor (possibly even with a soul-eating in the bargain) was regarded as just being a natural hazard of leadership. Running a massive scam like the one M'Chek was doing was beyond evil, I have no words to describe just how horrifying his actions were. Besides, Cyra at least feels some remorse for her actions, perhaps she even feels remorse for eating M'Chek's soul (although I wouldn't blame her if she didn't) and earlier in the story, she fully admitted that her actions were not done with the best of intentions. I honestly don't see Cyra as evil. Misguided and repentant? Yes. Outright evil? No.
Either soul eating is evil, then both Cyra and M'Chek are, or it isn't in which case M'Chek was a nice guy and Cyra a backstabbing murderer.
Either way she is more black than white.
Edit: I also don't see any remorse from her, just regret that it didn't turn out like she wanted.
In the first frame she basically blames M'Chek for not having safeguards in place in case of his death. That she shouldn't have murdered him doesn't seem to cross her mind.
Also, if she wanted to repent she could given herself up to the dragons to prevent or possibly stop the war.
You seem to be REALLY invested in the idea that Cyra's just horribly evil and unwilling to accept any evidence that she isn't.
She sought to ascend for the good of her clan, she did so by intending to consume the soul of a dragon. Said dragon had been consuming the souls of generations of people in his city to increase his power. She intended to kill no one else. However what happened with the city was something completely unforeseeable and it devastated her bringing about the deaths of so many people. She's deeply remorseful about what happened, because she's definitely more on the white side than black. She's trying to help others and was even willing to give up her life as penance for all the deaths she accidentally caused. That's not the mentality of someone who's more black than white.
The dragons were also completely uninterested in stopping the war, they WANTED a good excuse for war. They've been steadily exterminating any species that they consider a potential threat to their supremacy. Cubi are what's the latest target on their list. That's one of the key motivators of Biggs to get Jyrras to construct weapons that can bypass a dragon's magical defenses and easily kill them, because they know after the cubi are genocided the dragons will move on to another species until only the weakest beings remain. So no, it would have been REALLY stupid for Cyra to pointlessly sacrifice herself like that, especially considering it would have inflicted even more suffering on her surviving daughter and likely led to her death. She had to remain alive for the sake of her daughter, now she needs to for her grandson.
So if killing just one dragon did all that, what'll be the end result of killing all dragons? You know that's where it's going.
Biggs could end up the biggest mass-murderer of all time - and not just by mass, but numbers, too. :mowninja
Quote from: Ixal on February 17, 2020, 12:07:52 PM
Quote from: Eboreg on February 17, 2020, 11:58:07 AM
I tend to find that in any conflict, there is no black or white morality and you simply have to side with those that are the least dark shade of grey. While Cyra's actions may have been morally reprehensible by our standards, there's no indication that they were regarded as being just as morally wrong at the time. Perhaps when running a major city, getting backstabbed by your closest advisor (possibly even with a soul-eating in the bargain) was regarded as just being a natural hazard of leadership. Running a massive scam like the one M'Chek was doing was beyond evil, I have no words to describe just how horrifying his actions were. Besides, Cyra at least feels some remorse for her actions, perhaps she even feels remorse for eating M'Chek's soul (although I wouldn't blame her if she didn't) and earlier in the story, she fully admitted that her actions were not done with the best of intentions. I honestly don't see Cyra as evil. Misguided and repentant? Yes. Outright evil? No.
Either soul eating is evil, then both Cyra and M'Chek are, or it isn't in which case M'Chek was a nice guy and Cyra a backstabbing murderer.
Either way she is more black than white.
Edit: I also don't see any remorse from her, just regret that it didn't turn out like she wanted.
In the first frame she basically blames M'Chek for not having safeguards in place in case of his death. That she shouldn't have murdered him doesn't seem to cross her mind.
Also, if she wanted to repent she could given herself up to the dragons to prevent or possibly stop the war.
you do realize by the majority of the populous of this world dragons are considered to be the big bads or at least all powerful arses right? in this world killing a dragon is generally considered doing the world a favor regardless of what they do. Might makes right world. Cyra was a bit greedy and ambitious yes. but definitely not evil.
Quote from: TapewolfThat's to be expected. Remember Biggs - this is exactly what he was complaining about. All Cyra did was the Might-Makes-Right Creature ideology writ large.
Biggs is a bigot, though. Just because he believes something doesn't make it correct - especially given the motivated reasoning involved, and the fact that Biggs himself thinks in this way, so likely projects that onto others as a form of internal justification.
The might-makes-right thing seems to be mostly associated with demons moreso than other kinds of creatures; we've seen demons show respect to those who fight back, and also little regard for those who died, as was the case in Abel's backstory - Kria and Dark Pegasus showed little regard for the other demons who died. But cubi and dragons seem to hold grudges over their fellows dying, and seem to care a lot more about it, and try to protect the weak, whereas Kria was pretty much ready to write off her brother if need be without any real grudges (and indeed, doesn't care that Dan killed her brother... repeatedly, and in fact, shows respect for the feat).
Not to say that others don't engage in such sometimes, but it doesn't seem like it is a uniform thing amongst creatures.
Quote from: IxalYou are right that Cyra is as evil as M'Chek and any form of sympathy for her is imo misplaced.
While she definitely
was evil, it's worth noting that
she decried her own ambition and arrogance and seems to be genuinely regretful of what she did. She also seems to be treating the mythos she's with with a lot more care, love, and respect, and wants to make a better life for them.
I mean, this was literally 7000 years ago. People change, and indeed, judging by her reaction here, I think that being faced with the consequences of her own actions played a major role in changing her mentality. It's worth remembering that she hid herself away almost immediately after all this went down - a lot of people seemed to interpret it as her lying low, but it is also entirely consistent with her having a psychotic break and basically fleeing from the world, which would also explain why all of her children were hunted down and killed without any personal intervention from her.
She wasn't any less evil than M'Chek at the time; she was doing the same thing he was doing, really. Arguably worse, really, given that she actively murdered someone rather than passively waiting for them to die. And she spent zero thought on whether or not there might be additional consequences, whether M'Chek had contingencies, what other effects there might be, ect.
She did it out of lust for power.
But I don't think she's the same person now that she was when she killed M'Chek.
Quote from: KathYohneke on February 17, 2020, 10:57:08 PM
you do realize by the majority of the populous of this world dragons are considered to be the big bads or at least all powerful arses right? in this world killing a dragon is generally considered doing the world a favor regardless of what they do. Might makes right world. Cyra was a bit greedy and ambitious yes. but definitely not evil.
Thats a common excuse in fantasy worlds why it is ok to murder sentient beings. "They are not us".
But its only that, an excuse. Murdering a dragon is no different than murdwring a cubi, demon or being under the same circumstances.
Either you see murder and soul eating as evil which means Cyra is so, or you don't but in that case M'Chek and Hizell are totally justified as "might makes right"
Quote from: Ixal on February 18, 2020, 02:57:49 AM
Thats a common excuse in fantasy worlds why it is ok to murder sentient beings. "They are not us".
But its only that, an excuse. Murdering a dragon is no different than murdwring a cubi, demon or being under the same circumstances.
Sure... that's just what a dragon would say (https://www.deviantart.com/ixal). :mowtongue
Quote from: Ixal on February 18, 2020, 02:57:49 AM
Quote from: KathYohneke on February 17, 2020, 10:57:08 PM
you do realize by the majority of the populous of this world dragons are considered to be the big bads or at least all powerful arses right? in this world killing a dragon is generally considered doing the world a favor regardless of what they do. Might makes right world. Cyra was a bit greedy and ambitious yes. but definitely not evil.
Thats a common excuse in fantasy worlds why it is ok to murder sentient beings. "They are not us".
But its only that, an excuse. Murdering a dragon is no different than murdwring a cubi, demon or being under the same circumstances.
Either you see murder and soul eating as evil which means Cyra is so, or you don't but in that case M'Chek and Hizell are totally justified as "might makes right"
also gotta remember. this is a webcomic. only word that matters is that of miss wiku worm. and MissMab clearly is setting Cyra up as a good sympathetic person who had a crap idea that backfired horribly. so any points to her being evil is invalid :mowmeep
Quote from: GreenReaper on February 18, 2020, 03:16:39 AM
Sure...
I would appreciate it if you do not make this personal and limit the discussion to this board.
Quote from: Ixal on February 18, 2020, 02:57:49 AM
Thats a common excuse in fantasy worlds why it is ok to murder sentient beings. "They are not us".
But its only that, an excuse.
Sadly, that is a very common justification in reality as well.
This definitely took a chunk out of my sympathy for Cyra as well, though I suspected it was coming.
She had no idea M'Chek was doing anything wrong. She makes this clear a couple times. So she planned to murder him and devour his soul in cold blood. This is exactly what Biggs was complaining about, that it has become "normal" to kill other people for personal gain.
I don't know how to judge the morality of 'soul devouring' because I don't know its consequences. If soul devouring is okay, then M'chek, who waited for natural causes, didn't do anything wrong in that regard (he'd be posthumously sharing guilt for the negligence of his system) and this part of what Cyra did is dismissable. If it's wrong, then it's wrong for both of them - that he did it at scale might mean he needed to be stopped, but she did not know that. She wasn't acting to save anyone, she was acting to murder and take his things for herself.
But I can judge her on pre-meditated murder, with extremely malicious goals. Relative morality extends to actions that don't directly harm others. If you get to the point where it's okay to cold-blooded murder someone for pure personal profit, I dunno if I can ever say "That's okay because other people were doing it too".
The real question remaining to me is: does she feel regret for participating in such a system at all, or does she feel regret for not getting the outcome she wanted? The way she talks about just needing his soul to ascend and from there gives me more chills about her than feelings of regret - that feels like she'd do it again if she didn't think it would have the same result. Put another way: If M'Chek had been what she thought she was, a guardian of the city, and killing him and eating his soul would just have ascended her, would she do it again? If yes, then she's not learned anything and is still pretty terrifyingly bad at heart. If no, then we get to where she's learned.
I think to Parthunaax in Skyrim, who also did horrible things and then went to live in isolation and penance. I think the tonal difference why I felt more sympathetic to him was he knew everything he did following Anduin was wrong, and made no justifications or excuses for his prior behavior. Now, this bit with Cyra isn't over, so there's still room for her to talk more about how she now sees this events with the wisdom of further years behind her. But it's going to need to be more than "I wish I didn't have something bad happen when I tried to murder someone for ascendence" to be wisdom.
So I'm definitely curious to see what her assessment is now. Edit: I imagine we'll get a good bit of how the story wants us to see her. It's not out of the question the comic wants to set her up to be someone Dan might learn from but not in the way she intends after all! And there's still time to go for her to fully express her feelings over all of it.
Let's take a break from this discussion about the nature of evil and marvel at the gorgeous art in this strip, especially those lighting effects.
Quote from: Galis on February 18, 2020, 08:11:27 AM
So I'm definitely curious to see what her assessment is now. Edit: I imagine we'll get a good bit of how the story wants us to see her. It's not out of the question the comic wants to set her up to be someone Dan might learn from but not in the way she intends after all! And there's still time to go for her to fully express her feelings over all of it.
It's worth bearing in mind that Cyra isn't the first to have done such a thing by a long shot. Eating someone more powerful and ascending from their soul energy is how, e.g. Zezzuva became what she is. This doesn't make it any less reprehensible (especially if souls allow for continuity after death), but it may put things into perspective, especially regarding the normalisation of violence.
If you knew that by destroying one person you could make yourself immortal and colossally powerful, part of you might secretly be tempted to try it, even if you find the idea abhorrent.
Now, the presence of Dan is interesting. He's young, until a few months ago he thought he was a weird Being. He's still running off Being ethics, so finding out that his grandmother was a soul-stealing monster in her youth, that's going to take a while to process, I expect.
Under other circumstances we could expect Cyra to treat him gently with her past exploits, to avoid spooking the descendant who might be the sole hope for her clan, now Destania has gone off the rails. But given the situation in reality right now, with her palace in the space station about to implode, I somehow doubt she's in a position to filter things much.
On another note, an interesting point is that if there are other soul-stealing setups like this, how would you go about defusing them? If you take out the head honcho, the city will explode and turn everyone into de-souled glass ornaments. But if you start dismantling the infrastructure, said guardian will crush you like a bug. It was only the element of surprise that allowed Cyra to take him out at all.
My point wasn't intended to be personal - it's that I don't think it's a coincidence that the two dragons are agreeing that Cyra is evil. Or that two cubi have the opposite view; one subtly slipping in aspersion of Hizell, the other casting Cyra's actions as "noble and justifiable". :mowcookie
We all have an innate bias towards our species. Ultimately, who we are colours our opinions - and not just because we associate with a particular side, or share a culture seeped in racist propaganda (https://www.furaffinity.net/view/20898388/), or because we're under constant threat of being killed on our father's orders (though those are big factors) - but because we have shared experiences and physical realities associated with the simple fact of who we are. It's not the only factor, but it is a factor.
To Dan's credit, he didn't try to excuse Cyra's actions upon finding out what she did. But then, he spent most of his life up to that point not knowing (and then initially denying) or experiencing that he was a cubi to start with, so perhaps it's not surprising that he started as an exception to the rule.
I suspect, though, he's just young, and in time (and he'll have a lot of time, if not killed) he'll tend towards the average cubi perspective. Already, he's looking to forgive her.
Quote from: GreenReaper on February 18, 2020, 08:53:35 AM
Already, he's looking to forgive her.
That might be something to do with fact she's his grandmother, not that she's cubi.
Quote from: GreenReaper on February 18, 2020, 08:53:35 AM
My point wasn't intended to be personal - it's that I don't think it's a coincidence that the two dragons are agreeing that Cyra is evil. Or that two cubi have the opposite view; one subtly slipping in aspersion of Hizell, the other casting Cyra's actions as "noble and justifiable". :mowcookie
I still prefer it that you do not look up my username on the net and bring up whatever you think you found into a discussion about a webcomic. For me thats making it personal.
Quote from: MT Hazard on February 18, 2020, 09:07:45 AM
That might be something to do with fact she's his grandmother, not that she's cubi.
Could well be. Like I said, not the only factor.
At the end of the day, it looks like she regrets her actions, but it's plausibly still due to the unanticipated consequences. By doing something big and noble right now with the power she gained, perhaps she can make the deaths of those she killed by accident worthwhile.
And I'd be fine with that. I don't think every killing is murder - after all, most of the dragons don't seem to see it that way. Even when it is considered murder, most beings seem to be able to live with accepting blood money, albeit under duress. And if we want to go there, M'Chek
was negligent in not fully considering the impact of his death; perhaps moreso than Cyra, who failed to find out something that he'd gone to some effort to keep secret. (Though, who can say if she'd have actually been a good replacement?)
The moral of the story seems to be that with great power comes great danger of irresponsibility and unintentional consequences. But also that anyone
taking that power is liable to get burned as well. Might be best for everyone to stop trying to change the world - but of course that wouldn't work so well as a comic.
Quote from: MT Hazard on February 18, 2020, 08:37:36 AM
Let's take a break from this discussion about the nature of evil and marvel at the gorgeous art in this strip, especially those lighting effects.
Yeah, I love the lighting, especially in panel 2, and also the shattering letters effect in the last panel, though I think Amber has done that before.
(Side note: I wonder how many more pages are there gonna be til the next scene change, I mean, as much as enjoy reading this story line and everyone's comments about it, it's a lot to take in, and I kinda wonder what some of the others are up to)
I would say, GreenReaper, that M'chec's own crimes are actually not relevant to Cyra's motivations for killing him, because she was unaware of them. She says straight out she believed him to be the city's guardian. Now, that's hardly a negative connotation, even if we don't know exactly what she meant.
I agree every killing isn't murder, but it's not the victim that makes it murder or not, it's the reason you kill them. Self defense is the easy example to come to. But conversely, killing a random passerby because you just feel like taking a life is murder, even if said random passerby ends up to themselves, through later investigation, turn out also to be a serial killer.
She would have killed M'chec even if he was a saint, is the point, so what does that say about what kind of person she was then? What kind of person she is now depends on what she's learned from the experiences beyond just grief, and how that changes what she would do then or might do later.
Hm... I suppose its the nature and relationship between life, souls and magic that would ultimately shed light best on this discussion (not that I expect it right now, it just seems that it would provide the best insight, and I do expect we'll learn more before the end). Something has made ascending to Tri-wing status increasingly soul-dependent (vs. other potential sources; the latest tri-wings have all ascended due to the absorption of another Creature's soul). Something about absorbing soul energy extends one's life, and based on Zezzuva's and Cyra's statements, it is likely many (all?) powerful dragons have been using Soul harvest to extend their lives for millennia at this point. Amber has also hinted that there is a price for using this energy.
I guess the questions would be: Had Cyra explored other options for Ascension? What led her to choose M'Chek as her intended victim (was it just power/convenience, or was there more to it than that)? What role have the dragon race (including M'Chek) played in the increased difficulty of ascension, and is it related to their soul harvesting? What are the repercussions for absorbing all that soul energy for the dragons? for all races? for magical energy on Furrae?
Cyra was indeed cruel for choosing to destroy M'Chek in order to further her plans - she has acknowledged this herself. But there seems to be something about Hishaan's underground crystal focus setup that... well, horrifies Cyra. Something that seems to indicate that if she had known about it, she might have looked for another option or even canceled her plans outright. She is horrified that M'Chek ate her father's soul, and then eulogized him. Why? In a world of "might makes right" that makes little sense. In a world where death means the soul energy is just free and available for the taking, this makes little sense. There is something of a taboo about souls in Furrae, and I think once we have a clearer idea of why that is we might have an idea of the gravity of the situation that led to the Glassing of Hishaan and the Dragon-Cubi War.
Quote from: Galis on February 18, 2020, 07:40:02 PM
I agree every killing isn't murder, but it's not the victim that makes it murder or not, it's the reason you kill them. Self defense is the easy example to come to. But conversely, killing a random passerby because you just feel like taking a life is murder...
Says who? Definitions like "murder" only make sense within a system of laws. Those making them can easily define murder as only applying to one group or another ("It's not murder if it's a Cubi..."; "Beings are just a way of keeping score..."), or set differing justifications and punishments - or even things like "nobles have the right to trial by combat" that make a mockery of the process when they're up against a commoner.
How 'fair' the laws are depends on the goals of those making and enforcing them. And if you overturn the fount of justice, such definitions no longer apply. Justice without power is empty - and the King can do no wrong (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_immunity).
Case in point: if Cyra
had achieved her goal, who would have tried her for murder? Trick question, since she did, and there was no court to try her. You could call the subsequent slaughter of her clan justice, of a sort... but it has more of the trappings of warfare between sovereign states ("a just war" - which, as always, means whatever the state prosecuting it decides).
If things
hadn't gone wrong with the crystals, it presumably wouldn't have been considered murder in any way that mattered - except by the dragons, of course - since Cyra would have been running things; a Tri-Wing is close enough to a living god to her subjects as makes no difference. Like all absolute monarchs (https://www.quora.com/Can-the-Queen-of-UK-be-prosecuted-in-UK-courtsn), gods in their domain are a law unto themselves. If they slip up, it's up to them to punish themselves, too - if they choose. Or someone like Mab, who's on a whole other level, and has likewise chosen to restrict themselves.
If I may be allowed to say something?
I think the issue is we don't know exactly why Cyra is so regretful and sad. Is she sad because of all the people who died? OR is she just sad because her direct family was killed.
Because if it's the latter, while it is reason enough to be sad, it's also rather self-centered because it basically means we're supposed to care about her pain and her pain only. I mean, I get that this is a "dog eat dog" world where death is a rather constant thing, but the story is still ultimately trying to create drama that appeals to an audience that does not live in such a horrible world.
When a person kills constantly, but then suddenly their own loved ones are threatened or killed, then I don't think it's right to sympathize with them because that just makes them hypocrites. It's basically stating that death only matters if it affects them.
Basically, if Cyra's family wasn't in the city when the entire incident went down, would she still be just as regretful and sad? Or would all the other civilians that died not even matter to her in her quest for power?
The whole point of the forum is to have a venue to talk about the comic, so I think you're in the right place. 😼
It's possible to read DMFA and even empathise with a character's plight without actually sympathising (or agreeing) with their world-view - either the one that they had, or the one they appear to have now.
In other words: maybe it's OK to feel sorry for Cyra, even if it's tinged with "7000 years and you still don't quite get it". I see her as a tragic figure, an object lesson for Dan - not a perfect role-model.
At the same time, projecting our world's values on them isn't necessarily going to work, and adopting them could be actively harmful for many characters. Plus it wouldn't be as fun to imagine running around as a Cubi if they conformed to our societal expectations.
Furrae has races/species of real personal power - it's not the same as here where a powerful person requires the support of others to stay in power. At most, they need to not be opposed by other powers, but the lesser beings are left to suffer the fallout of any battles.
Those with great power are also disproportionately represented in the comic, in part because their actions can have great consequences. But that doesn't make them great people. They're flawed, and power just magnifies the flaws (and, in Cyra's case at least, her body).
Of course, part of the fun of fantasy is that the world doesn't have to be or end up the way they "should" here. "Evil" can triumph - at least some of the time - and indeed it may be held up as good and virtuous by certain characters. And some readers might agree; after all having children and the power to protect them is so vitally important. Those who didn't share this worldview may well have died out, at least among Cubi.
Would it be OK to apply this philosophy to the real world if you like it? Probably not, unless you manage to bring back a Creature's powers as well.
The problem with that mindset is it just leads to what TvTropes refer to as "Darkness Induced Audience Apathy".
Put simply, if every character is a selfish asshole, or there's so much assholery going around that anything a good character does accomplish nothing, then why should we as audience care at all as to what happens?
The worst-case scenario is if every character were to suddenly drop dead, audience members would just shrug and just go "meh" because either this kind of death is just expected, or the characters are so horrible that you'd prefer that outcome.
I mean, if that logic is true, then we should've also supported Aniz in his killings and abuse of Abel, because "that's just how things are". Or we should support Dark Pegasus because he's got a ton of power and evil as hell.
My point is, if evil is the norm for this world, then why do we want to support Daniel? Either Daniel is being set up to ultimately fail and his entire adventure was pointless, or we should support him and things that are evil should be stopped.
Quote from: Ixal on February 18, 2020, 09:18:27 AM
Quote from: GreenReaper on February 18, 2020, 08:53:35 AM
My point wasn't intended to be personal - it's that I don't think it's a coincidence that the two dragons are agreeing that Cyra is evil. Or that two cubi have the opposite view; one subtly slipping in aspersion of Hizell, the other casting Cyra's actions as "noble and justifiable". :mowcookie
I still prefer it that you do not look up my username on the net and bring up whatever you think you found into a discussion about a webcomic. For me thats making it personal.
Word, that's kinda creepy
Quote from: GreenReaper on February 18, 2020, 09:54:54 PM
Says who? Definitions like "murder" only make sense within a system of laws. Those making them can easily define murder as only applying to one group or another ("It's not murder if it's a Cubi..."; "Beings are just a way of keeping score..."), or set differing justifications and punishments - or even things like "nobles have the right to trial by combat" that make a mockery of the process when they're up against a commoner.
We're just going to be heavily, heavily disagreeing there then I think if you think it's okay to kill someone for reasons like that. I don't think you do though, I think you're trying to say Cyra might believe that sort of thing - but that's the point. Believing those things is a motivation, but not an excuse. I wasn't using murder in the legal sense of murder one, murder two, capital murder etc - though such things all have roots in our moral systems, but in the notion of "wrongful killing". Your comparisons to monarchy show the same thing either - the king can get away with wrongful killing because he has made it legal but it doesn't make it just or right. The legal status of an action is independent of its moral status and its the moral status we're talking here. The king's motivation is he can do it and get away with it, and the legal follows, but that doesn't make it moral for him to do so even if he believes it is.
This notion of wrongful killing is pretty shared amongst all human cultures, and as I mentioned earlier, moral relativism allows some leeway on some kinds of acts - I might believe it is moral to work a certain day of the week and another person is not - but on areas when we talk about inflicting harm to another being, in this case, killing for the sake of personal wealth and power - there's not nearly so much room to hem and haw about whether it's okay to kill your neighbor and take his house for your own because you like it better or not. Good and bad are just constructs, but they are our constructs and that's how we judge things, and by any of our morality systems, past-Cyra was a very evil person then, regardless of how the laws of her own land or species would have judged her. If we try to take the approach of saying "Well to her that wasn't immoral" - it's almost never immoral in the perpetrator's mind to do what they did, so if that's how we approach things we're basically saying we ourselves have no moral values at all.
I don't think anyone's saying she has to end up one way or the other. There's a couple different ways this story arc could go. The most likely is she is remorseful for participating in the entire system, and thus has grown out of that previous life. Or this could be getting set up as a bit of a gut-punch for Dan, who has similar moral frameworks to the readers, to realize Cyra may still be more alien to him than he thought she was. Or somewhere where she maybe hasn't fully realized yet; her arc may not be over and he might be a necessary part of her further growth. But I don't think it's out of the comic's realm to be considering different degrees of morality; it does it all the time, with characters taking different lessons and growth away and most of the primary viewpoint characters having very "Good" qualities in general, despite some flaws, just like most "hero protagonists" tend to. That killing for gain is considered so "normal" in this world is something many of the viewpoint characters are finding to be a bad thing about the world, in one way or another, after all, and are not accepting.
Hmm, usually at this point in a similarly-themed MLP fanfic I decide the world is FUBAR and send in Hyper God-Mode Alondro to vaporize the entire universe. :kruger
Quote from: GreenReaperMy point wasn't intended to be personal - it's that I don't think it's a coincidence that the two dragons are agreeing that Cyra is evil.
Of course. Everyone knows dragons are better at everything, including morality. :V
Though more seriously it has nothing to do with imaginary species and more to do with Cyra's motivations at the time.
Whether or not Cyra remains a bad person is harder to tell, but she seems to regret what she did and admitted it was malicious the first time she talked to Dan about it.
I'm still not totally convinced that what happened was because M'chek didn't account for what would happen if he died, and not because it was an intentional failure mechanism that Cyra accidentally interfered with: All we know is that when he died, the network tried to feed his soul back into him (possibly to revive himself?), but that it went to Cyra instead, which started a power cascade.
Quote from: PhycoKrusk on February 21, 2020, 02:50:02 AM
I'm still not totally convinced that what happened was because M'chek didn't account for what would happen if he died, and not because it was an intentional failure mechanism that Cyra accidentally interfered with: All we know is that when he died, the network tried to feed his soul back into him (possibly to revive himself?), but that it went to Cyra instead, which started a power cascade.
Good point. Even if it wasn't intentional it does sound like this feedback loop only happening because Cyra absorbed part of M'Cheks soul and thus the machine could send M'Chek to "M'Chek" and thus overwhelming Cyras ability to absorb it.