So. I want to hunt the most Dangerous Think I know.
The Dragon Hizell.
So what do we know about Hizell?
"How do we kill the slake-moths?" Isaac hissed.
"You cannot."
"Don't ******** me," hissed Isaac. "Everything that lives can die."
"You misunderstand me. As an abstract proposition, of course they can die. And therefore, theoretically, they can be killed. But you will not be able to kill them. You would have to hit them in many dimensions at once, or do the most extraordinary amount of damage in this one and they will not give you the chance. Do you understand...?"
--Perdido Street Station, China Mieville
If we recall back to Abel and Pyroduck fighting, it looks like dragons are most vulnerable in their 'Being' mode. How much of this is down to Pyroduck's youth and inexperience is unknown.
I'd figure that if you try to fight Hizell in full dragon mode, you've already lost. If you were somehow able to catch him in Being form and inflict lethal damage in a single strike, e.g. decapitation or a projectile through his brain, that ought to work, but you never can tell with Creatures.
It would not surprise me if that's how Cyra took out M'Chek. Lured him into a sense of security, got him to turn into Being mode for a bit of nookie, and then did something graphically violent with her wing-tentacles.
...but good luck getting him to switch into a vulnerable form.
...Meh, I could theorize, but, what's the point anymore, especially here?
Is there even any actual confirmation on whether he's a Furrae-hatched dragon or not? Someone remind me if there's actually any rules on 'Outer Dragons' listed anywhere, except maybe having to be stuck in certain roles.
Dragons are also vulnerable to decapitation x5(presumably in dragon form). The one thing I don't get is why the clan leaders don't all gang up on him, and pull in help from the demons and angels(and maybe even beings), since they all seem to pretty much hate him.
Quote from: Techcubi on June 24, 2018, 08:58:26 AM
Is there even any actual confirmation on whether he's a Furrae-hatched dragon or not? Someone remind me if there's actually any rules on 'Outer Dragons' listed anywhere, except maybe having to be stuck in certain roles.
There's only one, and it is strongly implied to be Pip. Not sure that's been confirmed 100%, but it's in the high 90s.
Being the 'Pragmatic' and 'Thoughtful' creature that he is, it's highly possible that he's pulled an extreme Voldemort: He's put/diluted his essence into as many beings and creatures as he physically can.
It's also possible that he has several proxies that look like him(And yet probably some that don't), and are connected to him, with varying intelligences?
Can we note that the dragon in the first real Dan adventure arc is a red dragon? Sure, that was before Furrae more or less really became its whole world, but, Hizell could be the type to easily somehow find a way to abuse the meta.Quote from: Tapewolf on June 24, 2018, 09:34:21 AM
Quote from: Techcubi on June 24, 2018, 08:58:26 AM
Is there even any actual confirmation on whether he's a Furrae-hatched dragon or not? Someone remind me if there's actually any rules on 'Outer Dragons' listed anywhere, except maybe having to be stuck in certain roles.
There's only one, and it is strongly implied to be Pip. Not sure that's been confirmed 100%, but it's in the high 90s.
...Huh. That's- Interesting.
Remind me again, what has he been officially referred to as again?(At least race and species wise?)
Quote from: Techcubi on June 24, 2018, 09:46:32 AM
...Huh. That's- Interesting.
Remind me again, what has he been officially referred to as again?(At least race and species wise?)
Just a drake. We've no data on those. But. If you look at pages 1735-1738 there is a discussion of 'true' dragons, i.e. cosmic ones.
Oh yes, and page 1785 is where it's confirmed that Hizell is just a 'long-lived mortal' and a 'dragon wannabe' rather than a proper multiversal one.
Quote from: Tapewolf on June 24, 2018, 10:03:34 AM
Quote from: Techcubi on June 24, 2018, 09:46:32 AM
...Huh. That's- Interesting.
Remind me again, what has he been officially referred to as again?(At least race and species wise?)
Just a drake. We've no data on those. But. If you look at pages 1735-1738 there is a discussion of 'true' dragons, i.e. cosmic ones.
Oh yes, and page 1785 is where it's confirmed that Hizell is just a 'long-lived mortal' and a 'dragon wannabe' rather than a proper multiversal one.
...Yeah, I'll grant you that he doesn't always seem to use the best judgment.
And, humourously enough, said comic of confirmation is called 'Meta Meddling', said title not even really needing theorizing on.
Cyra has a strong interest in seeing him dead, perhaps she will even aid her daughter with the plan, even if it as bait, nothing would distract hizell more than the clan leader who scared dragon kind.
You could always go the Shadowrun route and create a nuke so powerful it kicks his soul out of his body and then you can chain his body in a cramped basement for eternity until a group of particularly skilled and powerful adventurers find it and make the choice of setting him free through death or returning him to his body.
I still think it's up to Jyrras to capture and imprison him using a mega-laminator.
Quote from: Tuyu on June 24, 2018, 09:59:25 PM
I still think it's up to Jyrras to capture and imprison him using a mega-laminator.
Capture him in a card and use him in a children's card game while riding motorcycles.
Quote from: Tuyu on June 24, 2018, 09:59:25 PM
I still think it's up to Jyrras to capture and imprison him using a mega-laminator.
I suspect this would be inherently impossible. Any laminator powerful enough to laminate Hizell would laminate itself, and thus make the activation button no longer available. Such powers of lamination simply were not meant to be.
Quote from: Jasonrevall on June 24, 2018, 08:54:17 PM
You could always go the Shadowrun route and create a nuke so powerful it kicks his soul out of his body and then you can chain his body in a cramped basement for eternity until a group of particularly skilled and powerful adventurers find it and make the choice of setting him free through death or returning him to his body.
I'd call spoilers, but I guessed something like that a long time ago for that game.
Also, my thought is change the rules enough that Hizell can't wield his power and influence anymore, leaving him stymied hard enough that he leaves of his own accord and never comes back.
Or drop one hell of a piano on him.
Like a Men In Black the Animated Series piano. You know. The one that was set off on Earth's Second Moon about 5,000 years ago.
My personal favorite would be to slap a giant toaster on him, then set Pip loose.
...Or a Teletubby costume, and smother him in mows.
Quote from: Jasonrevall on June 24, 2018, 08:54:17 PM
You could always go the Shadowrun route and create a nuke so powerful it kicks his soul out of his body and then you can chain his body in a cramped basement for eternity until a group of particularly skilled and powerful adventurers find it and make the choice of setting him free through death or returning him to his body.
This raises a good point, in that Mehlata had a soul-bomb that would kill all living things within a certain radius by ripping the soul from the body. However, souls seem to get more powerful with age so it's quite possible that a device like that wouldn't be capable of touching Hizell.
My best answer:
.50 cal anti-materiel rifle
and if that doesn't work, hit him with a rocket launcher.
Come on, we all know Biggs is trying to get Jyrras to invent those things!
Quote from: Tapewolf on June 25, 2018, 04:43:54 AM
Quote from: Jasonrevall on June 24, 2018, 08:54:17 PM
You could always go the Shadowrun route and create a nuke so powerful it kicks his soul out of his body and then you can chain his body in a cramped basement for eternity until a group of particularly skilled and powerful adventurers find it and make the choice of setting him free through death or returning him to his body.
This raises a good point, in that Mehlata had a soul-bomb that would kill all living things within a certain radius by ripping the soul from the body. However, souls seem to get more powerful with age so it's quite possible that a device like that wouldn't be capable of touching Hizell.
Power doesn't mean the tether that keeps the body and soul bonded gets stronger. You assume that tech mixed with magic can't match the power wielded by living beings yet we can literally reconstruct matter out of the air with just tech right now with Mattershift and programmable molecular gateways. Technology can be just as terrifying when used in desperation as eldritch abominations. Hit him hard with enough badaboom and I'm sure his soul will rattle outta him in no time. After all isn't that what Mab is trying to get Jyrras to do? Even the playing field in Furrae? Or maybe that's how DMFA will end. With a bang.
Also the shadowrun thing I was refering to is actually using an older shadowrun story and the newer game itself is 4 years old. I'd think that'd be an okay thing to reference by now lol sorry if I ruined any plot for people.
Quote from: Jasonrevall on June 25, 2018, 11:17:36 AM
Power doesn't mean the tether that keeps the body and soul bonded gets stronger. You assume that tech mixed with magic can't match the power wielded by living beings yet we can literally reconstruct matter out of the air with just tech right now with Mattershift and programmable molecular gateways.
Depends how that particular soul-liberation technique works. It may be that a more powerful soul requires more energy to dislodge... a single person could push a car down the road. Hizell might be like one person trying to push a 50ft tall mining truck. That said, it appears to be possible for lesser creatures to consume the souls of bigger ones, e.g. Zezzuva destroying her tri-winged sister, so that analogy may not hold.
As for Shadowrun, I know nothing at all about that so I can't comment on it specifically.
Why do we even need to rip his soul from his body? Just kill the guy!
Quote from: The One Guy on June 25, 2018, 05:57:27 PM
Why do we even need to rip his soul from his body? Just kill the guy!
Because he has no heart so the next best target is his rotten soul.
Quote from: Tapewolf on June 24, 2018, 10:03:34 AM
Quote from: Techcubi on June 24, 2018, 09:46:32 AM
...Huh. That's- Interesting.
Remind me again, what has he been officially referred to as again?(At least race and species wise?)
Just a drake. We've no data on those. But. If you look at pages 1735-1738 there is a discussion of 'true' dragons, i.e. cosmic ones.
Oh yes, and page 1785 is where it's confirmed that Hizell is just a 'long-lived mortal' and a 'dragon wannabe' rather than a proper multiversal one.
Didn't we see one of the black and white Amber pages that basically said that that Pip was one of those cosmic dragons that was effectively imprisoned?
Quote from: keybounce on June 25, 2018, 06:38:48 PM
Didn't we see one of the black and white Amber pages that basically said that that Pip was one of those cosmic dragons that was effectively imprisoned?
Oh yes, page 1682. It's framed in the negative, but that's the implication, and it is consistent with all the other implications.
Feel like I'm going to be digging my own grave here, but-
Gee, for a guy who appears to dislike(Or at least be heavily annoyed by)the Fae, he sure seems to look on at them whenever he gets the chance, doesn't he?
...And, Mab's whole laser finger thing could be considered almost playful, if it wasn't for the shattered scrying globe after. Why even be like that at all, to someone a ton of Beings and Creatures seem to utterly despise?
Quote from: The One Guy on June 25, 2018, 05:57:27 PM
Why do we even need to rip his soul from his body? Just kill the guy!
Because that may BE the only way to kill him, or at least for weaker creatures to eliminate him. His soul may be more vulnerable than his body, plus with his soul ripped out it would leave his body more vulnerable. Even just separating his soul from him for a few seconds could make it possible for a prepared adventurer to decapitate him while he's immobile.
Quote from: Techcubi on June 25, 2018, 07:25:34 PM
...And, Mab's whole laser finger thing could be considered almost playful, if it wasn't for the shattered scrying globe after. Why even be like that at all, to someone a ton of Beings and Creatures seem to utterly despise?
If the question is, "why doesn't Mab just eliminate him?", we don't have a full answer to that. She's expressed her desire that the revolution should come from within rather that being enforced by her, but we're not told why. It may be because it's more challenging (entertaining) to do things that way, it may be because meddling on that scale would attract unwanted attention from the forces of Order, or possibly because one of Hizell's kids would take his place and it would devolve into a massacre.
It would also make a rather disappointing, like that SF writer who recorded everything to tape, and only found out how many words he'd done when they were typed up, resulting in webs of intrigue that were abruptly wrapped up because he ran out of space.
Quote from: Eboreg on June 25, 2018, 10:01:20 AM
My best answer:
.50 cal anti-materiel rifle
Or, from the old Nightstar Schlock Mercenary forums:
The 30-cm (diameter) sniper rifle.
Replying a bit more seriously, have we actually gotten any reason to to believe Hizell would be ESPECIALLY hard to kill, compared to any other dragon of similar age? Dragons are listed as having no real combat weaknesses, but that doesn't mean they're indestructable. There's a reason it was a Dragon-Cubi War, not the Dragon-Slaughter-Cubi-Fest. We know a number of dragons also died, and not all of them were babies, like for instance Hizell's wife.
Their hide might be 'impenetrable' if talking about simple means, but you can't decapitate someone without penetrating their skin, much less five times.
Id say probably the same way Quoar killed Hizell's wife (who probably wasn't much younger or weaker than Hizell)
Or the way Cyra killed that dragon (what was his name again?) who playing the part of a lovecraftian soul eater, was drawing power from the life force of everyone in their city including their own offspring, consuming the souls of those who died there for even greater power over the course of thousands of years.
Honestly ive seen nothing that indicates that Hizell is especially notable compared to any other big time dragon thats been mentioned. It just seems like it because hes the only dragon we actually see in the present day who anywhere near the big leagues.
Quote from: Jasae Bushae on June 26, 2018, 03:32:12 AM
Id say probably the same way Quoar killed Hizell's wife (who probably wasn't much younger or weaker than Hizell)
Well, we saw how that worked out for Siar.
Quote
Or the way Cyra killed that dragon (what was his name again?) who playing the part of a lovecraftian soul eater, was drawing power from the life force of everyone in their city including their own offspring, consuming the souls of those who died there for even greater power over the course of thousands of years.
Remember, M'Chek saw Cyra as an amusing diversion who was of no real consequence. I still think she got him to go into Being mode and backstabbed him then. The entire basis for the 'Cubi extermination effort was that the race was re-evaluated from 'harmless' to 'deadly threat', but even without that I think the big dragons are not going to make the same mistake twice.
QuoteHonestly ive seen nothing that indicates that Hizell is especially notable compared to any other big time dragon thats been mentioned. It just seems like it because hes the only dragon we actually see in the present day who anywhere near the big leagues.
True. We don't know - and Biggs admits he doesn't know - whether offing Hizell will help things in the long run, since another may simply take his place.
While there are a ton of individual factors involved, the twin examples of Siar and Hizell's wife just indicates that the two are somewhat comparable to one another, as in each case one was able to kill the other. (I don't think Siar's clan honestly factor into things, as as soon as Hizell killed the clan leader the rest would be reeling so much from the blow they'd lost nearly all combat effectiveness, at least temporarily). And clan leaders tend to all be in hiding in terms of their true physical form, as even though they're incredibly powerful, they're still eminently killable.
The theory of "they're killable in Being form" doesn't seem to gel with what we know about the war to me. If you have to trick a dragon into being form before you can kill them, there'd be no point of Siar calling her clan, as if the dragon was in being form one swipe and the kill is done, but if they are in dragon form the only choice is to run. You'd have expected to have hardnly lost any dragons in the war at all, again probably having it called more a slaughter then a war. Heck, all Pyroduck would need to do to not have to kill Hizell's messengers is just change into dragon form and let them impotently stab at him.
Quote from: Shakal on June 26, 2018, 05:48:54 AM
The theory of "they're killable in Being form" doesn't seem to gel with what we know about the war to me. If you have to trick a dragon into being form before you can kill them, there'd be no point of Siar calling her clan, as if the dragon was in being form one swipe and the kill is done, but if they are in dragon form the only choice is to run. You'd have expected to have hardnly lost any dragons in the war at all, again probably having it called more a slaughter then a war.
You may be right. But frankly, we don't actually know much about it at all. Unless I'm much mistaken, all we do know is that Hizell lost his wife and 5 of his children (one of whom is Pyroduck), whereas the 'Cubi race lost something like 90% of its members. So 'slaughter' may in fact be a more accurate description.
Quote
Heck, all Pyroduck would need to do to not have to kill Hizell's messengers is just change into dragon form and let them impotently stab at him.
That's actually what she expected him to do, and she was miffed and insulted because he didn't. Though ultimately, would that have helped? She was ordered to kill him, and prepared to die in Hizell's service. She wouldn't have gone back, or gone away. From what she says in that scene, it sounds like she'd have waited and stabbed until he either assumed a more vulnerable form, or died herself.
Quote from: Tapewolf on June 26, 2018, 04:19:10 AM
Quote from: Jasae Bushae on June 26, 2018, 03:32:12 AM
Id say probably the same way Quoar killed Hizell's wife (who probably wasn't much younger or weaker than Hizell)
Well, we saw how that worked out for Siar.
That's because of Hizell's retaliation, not because of the method used to kill her.
Step one steal Jyrras's entire arsenal, Step two get people to crew the machines, Step three recruit a ton of mages, Step four blast him to smithereens with magic on one side and a bunch of tech on the other.
Quote from: Madd on June 27, 2018, 11:57:57 AM
Step one steal Jyrras's entire arsenal, Step two get people to crew the machines, Step three recruit a ton of mages, Step four blast him to smithereens with magic on one side and a bunch of tech on the other.
Why split the sides? Just put a mix of both on each side, and watch the fireworks!
My own theory.
Knowledge.
Dark Phoenix is a near God in knowledge.
His Sister is also a Near God Like teacher.
How I would do it. Accumulate a Mountain of Knowledge to find his weaknesses.
Then Attack That.
Quote from: Jasonrevall on June 24, 2018, 11:02:01 PM
Quote from: Tuyu on June 24, 2018, 09:59:25 PM
I still think it's up to Jyrras to capture and imprison him using a mega-laminator.
Capture him in a card and use him in a children's card game while riding motorcycles.
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/216400863512625153/475297750209134603/createcard.png)
I mean, the implication of Biggs and Jyrras's plan is that Jyrras is going to build a gun of some sort that uses magicless bullets to kill him.
I don't know how many guns are around in Furrae, but we know that Jyrras has built a number of them. The creatures may not be prepared for that kind of anarchy.
Quote from: Titanium Dragon on August 06, 2018, 10:39:59 PM
I mean, the implication of Biggs and Jyrras's plan is that Jyrras is going to build a gun of some sort that uses magicless bullets to kill him.
I don't know how many guns are around in Furrae, but we know that Jyrras has built a number of them. The creatures may not be prepared for that kind of anarchy.
Jyrras has built the ONLY guns. Remember that, when he uses one on the adventurers, he thinks to himself 'This is an untested prototype' and 'It could have exploded in my hands'.
Also, Mab does not just kill him because all fey take a role, and Mab's is to be MOSTLY silly.
If she is mostly silly in character, I still wonder how she did the whole 'Use my power to save Pyro' and 'Break Hizell's scrying orb'.
Though, IIRC, she was able to go 'Full Fey' when Pyro begged/asked for her help? Like, maybe that was an exception to her role as 'Carefree Mab'? 'I am carefree and don't have my uber fey powers..UNLESS a good friend asks for my uber fey powers to save them'?
I honestly think Jyrras is going to build a literal nuke, not a gun. He seemed to have a lot of reservations about what Biggs showed him.
Quote from: Kazy on August 07, 2018, 05:50:31 AM
I honestly think Jyrras is going to build a literal nuke, not a gun. He seemed to have a lot of reservations about what Biggs showed him.
That might not actually work - if they're element resistant and can set up force-shields or are naturally proof against regular (magic-imbued) matter, a powerful creature such as a dragon may be able to survive such an attack. And these are all traits that have been demonstrated in the comic. Unless he swallows it and it detonates inside his invulnerable hide...?
The trick with the gun is that it fires projectiles of magic-resistant matter, the idea being that it will go straight through magically-reinforced hides and force-shields. A fragmentation bomb of some kind might work, and I suppose if you could use use magic-resistant materials to cut a hole in him to allow the blast of a low-yield device to vaporise his innards, but a machine-weapon seems a lot simpler and less prone to failure. You can test that in secret - setting off a nuclear device is a little bit obvious, assuming people don't just put it down to some petty act by the Fae, of course.
I also wonder if the people of Furrae have prior experience with nuclear science. After all, if they can create matter and extrasensory perception, they may have a firmer grasp of how fundamental matter works than we do.
EDIT: On that note it's interesting to mention that when Abel mentioned the city being turned to glass, Dan's immediate interpretation was that it had been vaporised a'la a nuclear device or asteroid strike.
Quote from: Akisohida on August 07, 2018, 12:10:05 AM
Though, IIRC, she was able to go 'Full Fey' when Pyro begged/asked for her help? Like, maybe that was an exception to her role as 'Carefree Mab'? 'I am carefree and don't have my uber fey powers..UNLESS a good friend asks for my uber fey powers to save them'?
I'm pretty sure (From memory) that it was less "I'm doing this because you asked me to", and more "I made a promise that the inn would be safe". As she pointed out, Pyro could have just stepped outside, and the Mab would not have needed to get involved; he was taking advantage of her promise, and he knew it.
Quote from: keybounce on August 07, 2018, 11:16:24 PM
Quote from: Akisohida on August 07, 2018, 12:10:05 AM
Though, IIRC, she was able to go 'Full Fey' when Pyro begged/asked for her help? Like, maybe that was an exception to her role as 'Carefree Mab'? 'I am carefree and don't have my uber fey powers..UNLESS a good friend asks for my uber fey powers to save them'?
I'm pretty sure (From memory) that it was less "I'm doing this because you asked me to", and more "I made a promise that the inn would be safe". As she pointed out, Pyro could have just stepped outside, and the Mab would not have needed to get involved; he was taking advantage of her promise, and he knew it.
Thank you for reminding me. :)
Though it still seems to be a failsafe for her plans...Things that allow her to get her full power back, if only for a small time or single problem. Then, back to being carefree Mab.
There is nothing in canon that makes a dragon invulnerable to physical damage, just extremely resistant due to scales and magic. The null-magic ammo loaded from... I dunno, maybe a GAU-8 30mm Rotary Autocanon might get his attention. I mean, it can cut an Abrams in half, should do for a dragon. Mount the thing on the Gryph-mech. If that doesn't work, go with Plan B... a.k.a. Macross Missile Massacre. Maybe a plasma cutting beam to the neck.
JyJy has access to sufficient tech to be able to kill a dragon. He has now been given motivation. Hizel's days are going to be numbered. The problem isn't killing Hizel... it is dealing with the aftermath. If a Being kills Hizel... the balance between Beings and Creatures suddenly gets thrown out the window. You've got Creatures who are now waking up to the fact that at least ONE Being is capable of killing things that even HE wouldn't want to mess with, and suddenly goes into genocidal mode to keep them ALL from getting this power. Which then encourages JyJy to build more to give to other beings to protect themselves, and you get into a whole World War scenario, where you've got Beings in Mechs vs Creatures, and extermination for pretty much all innocent bystanders.
Quote from: Prroul on August 09, 2018, 10:14:56 AM
There is nothing in canon that makes a dragon invulnerable to physical damage, just extremely resistant due to scales and magic.
"Invulnerable hide" is what the demonology says, though I grant you that might be a little outdated. I still suspect that dragons are normally only vulnerable in their Being-like form, thinking back to the fight between Abel and Pyroduck, or more recently Hizell's Minion vs Pyroduck. Or for that matter, M'Chek and Cyra (looks like she had to get him into bed in order to do for him).
QuoteThe problem isn't killing Hizel... it is dealing with the aftermath. If a Being kills Hizel... the balance between Beings and Creatures suddenly gets thrown out the window. You've got Creatures who are now waking up to the fact that at least ONE Being is capable of killing things that even HE wouldn't want to mess with, and suddenly goes into genocidal mode to keep them ALL from getting this power. Which then encourages JyJy to build more to give to other beings to protect themselves, and you get into a whole World War scenario, where you've got Beings in Mechs vs Creatures, and extermination for pretty much all innocent bystanders.
This is true, but does depend on word getting out. Jyrras has probably considered this angle, which is most likely one of the reasons he almost turned down Biggs. The big news would be that Hizell is dead, the who and the how is less important, at least initially. Jyrras has wisely kept the weapons project secret for the most part. It may remain secret afterwards. Even if it doesn't, Jyrras has the production facilities and his friends are nearly all Creatures. So they're likely to be the recipients of the weapony, for the most part.
I seriously think like Dark Phoenix.
Being just a Being I have to accumulate the knowledge to accomplish this quest.
I am pretty much dark Phoenix without the UN-Dead Thing At This Point.
Quote from: Tapewolf on June 24, 2018, 09:34:21 AM
Quote from: Techcubi on June 24, 2018, 08:58:26 AM
Is there even any actual confirmation on whether he's a Furrae-hatched dragon or not? Someone remind me if there's actually any rules on 'Outer Dragons' listed anywhere, except maybe having to be stuck in certain roles.
There's only one, and it is strongly implied to be Pip. Not sure that's been confirmed 100%, but it's in the high 90s.
Pip
has been seen complaining to Mab about being stuck in that useless form, so I'd say it's pretty much confirmed.[/color]