The Clockwork Mansion

Alright guys ive been doing alot of research about this particular date and here is what ive found...
The chinese I-ching points to the end of the world, The mayan calendar ends upbruptly december 21st, 2012, the web-bot, a computer program that grabs everything off the internet and makes a decision based on that... This one  im alittle weary about, but there is more. The Bible predicts the coming of the apocalypse soon. Yes, its not specific as most would like..but many "signs" are being fulfilled. the prophecies of merlin, im told, also speaks of the end of the world coming soon.(yes, i know the way it sounds ) Nostradamus sais the apocalypse, or the third anti-christ, will come in the time of the last pope, which would the the 112th pope. We are currently on the 111th. Einstein said once that if all the worlds bees disappeared mankind would have 4 years to live. Well, 90% of them are missing...indeed, not dead, but missing. They have not been able to recover the bee bodies. Also, planet x, also known as wormwood or nibiru (sumerian), is said to have completed its 2 or 3 thousand year cycle, and will come so close to earth it will mess up our gravitational feild. This is highly possible as nibiru is three times earth's size. Science backs this. Some say it will cause a pole shift. This is backed by science. Im not sure if this is true but i heard somewhere that a polititian confessed that global warming was just a cover story for the effects of nibiru already affecting us. Lol, theres more. I cannot tell you specifically, and i know how much all this fizzles out without specificity..but there was a politition that said a whole country is building underground to withstand the passing of nibiru...wish i could remember which country it was..o well..nix that part..
Nasa is predicting a death of 2/3 of the population by the pole shift caused by nibiru. It is also said that by 2011 the passing star will be visible to the naked eye in the sky..it will shine bright red.


All of this evidence all pointing one way...(Shrugs) not sure what to make of it. What do you guys think?

Well, I'll say the same thing I said to someone else on another forum: Ten bucks says that all of these predictions are wrong, and that the world will not end on the same day that the Mayan calendar ends. And if it actually does... well, heheheh.

In all seriousness, one thing that people tend to forget about the Mayans is that their concept of the "end of the world" was a little different than a western one: to them, it was more an "end of the world as we know it," meaning that drastic changes shall happen and the world will enter a new era, but the world isn't going to be destroyed. If I recall, the Mayan's talked about how this would be the sixth such "end of the world," yet the world is still around despite having "ended" five times already.

In addition to all of that, I don't trust prophecies or anything of that nature. I really don't. It's too easy to misinterpret before something happens, and too easy to say "this is what it was talking about!" after something happens.

"Evidence"

i have been taught, i have read, and i have seen that yes, there will be an end to the world.....kinda

in fact, there were many ends to the world, or rather many possible endings to the world.

however mankind has grabbed fate by the lips, kicked it in the nards, and said 'go fornicate yourself with an iron rod' each time fate decided it was time to end.

and thus shall it be the next time, maybe. after all, in about 25 years an 'armageddon' style meteor is plotted to hit earth, and we already have many longterm ideas of how to swat it off course.

I've never really believed in fate, divine plans, prophecies  or any form of pre-destiny.  That may just be my inclination towards Discordianism speaking but given what we've seen so far it just doesn't seem likely.  Much like what Brun has said, every time our 'fated end', 'final destiny', and 'imminent doom' has come along we've found a way to avert it.  Does this mean we always will?  Likely not but it's impossible to say as far as I'm concerned.

"You are free to sever the chains of Fate that bind you."

That quote really spoke to me when I was young.  People always told me I was nothing.  A loser and will always be one.  They tried to tie me to a fate but here I am now:  I've got a good job where I'm paid well, am happy when I get there and get to do something I love,got full benefits, got lots of friends and I am very much able to weather any storm that life has thrown at me.  All because I took their little prophecy of my future and spat in it's face.  Much as any of us have done at some point or may yet do.

fun factoid- 'armageddon' is not an event, its a place. supposedly the end of the world known as 'armageddon' happens at this place, the name literally translates to 'hill of bricks' but today its called mount caramel.

just about every major army and crazy dictator has slaughtered people there- napoleon, ghengez khan, the persians, the ottoman turks, vlad tepes dracul, at least six crusades, the spartians, imperial brittan..... although i cant remember if nazi germany or the soviet union ever had a stint there, im shaky at the geography of more modern warfare.

yeah, at the time most of those happened people probably thought the world was going to end by war and the flames of doom- yet humans withstood each time, and will continue to do so.... especially now that humans live in places other then the fertile crescent, and its hard to kill off the entire population of the world by having a land battle on one specific hill in the middle of a giant litterbox

Quote from: Jairus on July 25, 2008, 03:15:08 AM
Well, I'll say the same thing I said to someone else on another forum: Ten bucks says that all of these predictions are wrong, and that the world will not end on the same day that the Mayan calendar ends. And if it actually does... well, heheheh.

In all seriousness, one thing that people tend to forget about the Mayans is that their concept of the "end of the world" was a little different than a western one: to them, it was more an "end of the world as we know it," meaning that drastic changes shall happen and the world will enter a new era, but the world isn't going to be destroyed. If I recall, the Mayan's talked about how this would be the sixth such "end of the world," yet the world is still around despite having "ended" five times already.

In addition to all of that, I don't trust prophecies or anything of that nature. I really don't. It's too easy to misinterpret before something happens, and too easy to say "this is what it was talking about!" after something happens.

Indeed the mayans held to these ideas. We are in the age of pisces now and december21, 2012 will mark the day we enter the age of aquarius..But yes, the mayans concept of time was cyclical, unlike the west's rigid sense of it.


Yes, we have the power to choose. Though, i could walk outside and get hit by a train and die. Would this be my choice? No, lol. I beleive that yes alot of things we have the power to change but every now and then, we come across something we cant. And as much as it might freak us out, as much as man would like to control the circumstances, Some things are just out of our reach, and over our heads.
My opinion.

I'll try to keep this fairly neutral, without me accidentally straying into a religious tangent and inadvertently derailing the thread.

Quote from: Mowser on July 25, 2008, 09:57:07 AM
I've never really believed in fate, divine plans, prophecies  or any form of pre-destiny.  That may just be my inclination towards Discordianism speaking but given what we've seen so far it just doesn't seem likely.  Much like what Brun has said, every time our 'fated end', 'final destiny', and 'imminent doom' has come along we've found a way to avert it.  Does this mean we always will?  Likely not but it's impossible to say as far as I'm concerned.

I pretty much agree with almost everything Mowser's said. I don't have believe in fate or a predestined existence, to summarize my opinions simply, without getting any of my ridiculously hippie-like, optimistic religious beliefs involved. I believe that a person's path in life is dictated by their responsibilities and actions; just as I think that the survival of our planet is dependent on what we do to prevent such a fate from occurring.

The only way I can see our planet somehow meeting its demise is through our orchestrations alone; basically if the planet's limitations have utterly been stretched, bypassed, and violated in every imaginable way. And considering how long we've lasted so far, I can't feasibly see Armageddon arriving instantaneously, without any precursor. However, it's impossible to predict what will happen in the future.

Although, I'm fairly irritated about how every foreseeable Apocalypse seems to be taking place before I've safely died of old age. :c I would have been laughing from the afterlife at everyone's misfortune.

~Keaton the Black Jackal

If the end of the world is fated to happen in 2012, worrying about it will not stop it. If it does not, then I've worried myself needlessly.

Nostradamus's prophecies are broad, and are famed for being so. I'm uncertain as to the historical existence of a wizard, alchemist, mystic, or even scientist named Merlin, although I could be wrong.
I'd be interested in knowing where you read or heard about a "Planet X" that will be appearing in 2012. I think M. Night Shamalyan is making a movie about disappearing bees, but other than that, I've heard nothing about it - again, I'd be interested in knowing where you heard about it.

The Mayan calendar has been covered already, I think. I will say that most of these things smack of conspiracy theory. I have been wrong before, but, I'm willing to say that I really rather doubt anything special will happen.

*Charles will only say one thing about the end of the world*

One thing.   :mwaha

Quote from: Cogidubnus on July 25, 2008, 10:34:52 AM
If the end of the world is fated to happen in 2012, worrying about it will not stop it. If it does not, then I've worried myself needlessly.

Nostradamus's prophecies are broad, and are famed for being so. I'm uncertain as to the historical existence of a wizard, alchemist, mystic, or even scientist named Merlin, although I could be wrong.
I'd be interested in knowing where you read or heard about a "Planet X" that will be appearing in 2012. I think M. Night Shamalyan is making a movie about disappearing bees, but other than that, I've heard nothing about it - again, I'd be interested in knowing where you heard about it.

The Mayan calendar has been covered already, I think. I will say that most of these things smack of conspiracy theory. I have been wrong before, but, I'm willing to say that I really rather doubt anything special will happen.

I heard about planet x/ nibiru off of youtube. But if you go to google and just type in planet x youll come back with ALOT of resuts.



And i can relate with your doubt of anything happening on that day....Though, the pinacle of nostradamus's work would have to be wrong, the chinese I-ching would have to be false, the mayans who predicted countless events before would have to be wrong, Einstein would have to be wrong, the web-bot would have to be wrong, the scientists would have to be wrong, Nasa would have to be wrong, and our Government would have to be telling us the truth....Does any of this seem right to anybody?

Quote from: Archanon8957 on July 25, 2008, 10:23:59 AM
Yes, we have the power to choose. Though, i could walk outside and get hit by a train and die. Would this be my choice? No, lol. I beleive that yes alot of things we have the power to change but every now and then, we come across something we cant. And as much as it might freak us out, as much as man would like to control the circumstances, Some things are just out of our reach, and over our heads.
My opinion.

This doesn't however imply that was going to happen either way.  Fate, pre-destiny and the like all imply that something is in control.  I don't buy into that.  I have choice, but no real control.  I have a semblance of control in that I can influence events but in the end I really believe it's all just chance.

Quote from: Mowser on July 25, 2008, 02:53:03 PM

Quote from: Archanon8957 on July 25, 2008, 10:23:59 AM
Yes, we have the power to choose. Though, i could walk outside and get hit by a train and die. Would this be my choice? No, lol. I beleive that yes alot of things we have the power to change but every now and then, we come across something we cant. And as much as it might freak us out, as much as man would like to control the circumstances, Some things are just out of our reach, and over our heads.
My opinion.

This doesn't however imply that was going to happen either way.  Fate, pre-destiny and the like all imply that something is in control.  I don't buy into that.  I have choice, but no real control.  I have a semblance of control in that I can influence events but in the end I really believe it's all just chance.

And i want you to know you and your beleifs are respected. But i disagree with you 125%.
I suppose we should limit the depth of this discussion to right about here...i dont want any1's feelings hurt from this

Quote from: Archanon8957 on July 25, 2008, 02:45:31 PM
I heard about planet x/ nibiru off of youtube. But if you go to google and just type in planet x youll come back with ALOT of resuts.

None of which may actually be accurate. heck, I can put up ten websites (on at least four different servers that I have direct access to - so not counting geocities or the like) in an hour that state that next year, Bush will be polishing boots at The Savoy. It doesn't make it accurate.

Quote from: Archanon8957 on July 25, 2008, 02:45:31 PM
And i can relate with your doubt of anything happening on that day....Though, the pinacle of nostradamus's work would have to be wrong, the chinese I-ching would have to be false, the mayans who predicted countless events before would have to be wrong, Einstein would have to be wrong, the web-bot would have to be wrong, the scientists would have to be wrong, Nasa would have to be wrong, and our Government would have to be telling us the truth....Does any of this seem right to anybody?

Nope. The people interpreting Nostrodamus would be wrong. Likewise I-Ching, and as for the Mayans... which events did they predict? Was it reliably identified as being that prior to the date, or only in hindsight?

Einstein himself admitted to being wrong on a number of points. No news there.

"scientists" and "web-bot" and "NASA" are all arguments from authority; no actual detail provided, you're just stating that NASA said it, therefore it's right. Citation, please, otherwise it's an empty argument.


As for the government? Heck, this is the same government that told us there were WMD's in Iraq, and the only ones they could find were the ones they shipped in to start with? Yeah, I trust them. Honest I do.

Oh, and the same government that can't manage to get a workable tax system, either. Or welfare. Or...


Need I go on?

Quote from: Archanon8957 on July 25, 2008, 03:00:18 PM
And i want you to know you and your beleifs are respected. But i disagree with you 125%.
I suppose we should limit the depth of this discussion to right about here...i dont want any1's feelings hurt from this

*shrug* As long as everyone is being polite and is just explaining things, without getting personal, it's not a problem. Believe me, the moderators are watching. ;-]

Quote from: Archanon8957 on July 25, 2008, 03:00:18 PM
And i want you to know you and your beleifs are respected. But i disagree with you 125%.
I suppose we should limit the depth of this discussion to right about here...i dont want any1's feelings hurt from this

No hurt feelings are likely, and if there are,  most will PM you first and explain their grievance with you in order to work things out.  I'm glad you're thinking about it though.  :D

I fully expected you to disagree with me, based on your previous posts.  I wasn't trying to convert you to my way of thinking or anything but wanted to express mine as you did.  :D  In fact, I was hoping you'd counter by telling me more about yours.

My Dad said he once had a diary where he'd written six different dates that he'd heard from various people that the world was supposed to end on.
Since then, all six have been crossed out.

hmm... the bible says the world will end soon, eh? it said that a thousand years ago, too.

I suspect that the only reasont he I-ching says it will end on the same day as the mayans' calendar ends is that whoever interpreted the I-ching was familiar with the mayan calendar and (conciously or not) allowed that to influence the transation.

there is a nice big list of predicted ends of the world you can find with a little searching around; you may notice that most of the predictions fall in different dates and, more notable, most of them fall on dates that have already passed.

if there is some big world ending event coming up, and we can't see it approaching, then it doesn't matter, it'll happen when it happens, and there's no use changing how you live because of it.  If the predictions are false, as they have been time and time again, then there's even less reason to change.

Quote from: llearch n'n'daCorna on July 25, 2008, 03:02:34 PM
*shrug* As long as everyone is being polite and is just explaining things, without getting personal, it's not a problem. Believe me, the moderators are watching. ;-]

Hehe i bet they are...eyeing us like vultures...


All im saying man is that if this many sources point to one thing, sure, they could all be wrong, or misinterpreted, but is that probable?
Hrm, and yes my sources are not cited but neither or yours...i say if you want to make this an official debate, which im perfectly willing to do, given 15 billion results for keywords, "planet x" off of google, (most in support of my case) then im willing to go through with it.

And, i dont think the world will end. I just think something very big will happen on that day, and as much as that seems far-fetched in our current day, you might beleive me if something happens before that date, that would seem to complete a smoother transition into what the mayans (etc.) predicted.

Heh. Yes, you're right. I am watching like a vulture. ;-]

*cough*

I wasn't disagreeing with Planet X - heck, of your list, I think it's the most likely one to be true. It's very likely that we can miss something out in space; it's a very very VERY big place, after all. I do take exception to the "there's a big conspiracy to hide it" thing, though; I'm a strong believer in "two people can keep a secret, if one of them is dead".

I've known too many idiots to believe that a massive conspiracy, or secret government departments, or the like, would be possible to keep secret for any length of time. Anything with that many people involved is going to have a slip of the tongue, or an accidentally released document, or something.


And yes, I'd be willing to accept that there will be something interesting happening on the day. I just don't see anyone managing to provide a coherent prediction for what it is. So far, I'm saying "it'll be a normal day, just like any other" - you're the one predicting interesting things, which means that, sadly, I don't have to provide any proof. It's all in your hands. ;-]

I'm not asking for "go google it"; there are more than one possible result for planet X; it was used to refer to possible options for a tenth planet for years, so at least some of them are looking for planets lurking out around near Saturn and Neptune, or out where Pluto lurks; either way, the mere fact that a possible planet exists does not require that said planet is going to intersect with Earth's orbit in any meaningful way. You say it does and it will; provide a link to one of these results that is asserting that the tenth planet exists, is large enough to cause problems, close enough to cause problems, and is predicted to arrive in Earth's locale in 2012. I'll even accept vaguely wishy-washy data, and dodgy conclusions, if that makes it easier.


Twenty million monkeys doesn't make the Internet accurate. Just noisy. ;-]

Your ball.

Planet X already missed one date!

Bad Astronomy to the rescue! (http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/planetx/index.html) 

Every time it misses, they just make up a new set of orbital parameters based on nothing but a computer model to fit someone else's doomsday predictions.  If they had the orbital parameters so well-defined, the planet would already be identified because we'd friggin know where to look.  Not to mention, if it's going to hit us in a mere 3-4 years, it'd already be within at least Uranus' orbital sphere and even at Earrth-size would be visible as a fuzzy blob moving relative to the background stars.  Again, we'd have found it by now.

And it's very possible for dozens of predictions to pick the same date for Doomsday and all of them to be wrong... just look back at the year 2000.

I put no faith at all in any thing that claims to know the year of Doom.

Because I alone know, as I will be the one who causes it.   :mwaha

PS:  A passage from the book of one of the Planet X dumbasses:

A  passage From Mr. Hazlewood's book "Blindsided", page 11:

"A whole team was contacting every observatory in France -- just sent a message. The Neuchatel observatory got it. They are very excited, wondering if it is a comet or a brown dwarf, through the latest coordinates given. The daughter of the astronomer reports that they suspect a comet or a brown dwarf on the process to becoming a pulsar since it emits "waves." "

Mmm-hmm... a comet or a brown dwarf... turning into a pulsar... something either small than the Earth (comet) or at least smaller than the sun (brown dwarf) turning into a hyperdense spinning neutron star which normall results from a supernova of a supergiant star.  I believe he must have had 2/3 of his brain lobotomized at some point.  He knows less about astronomy than I did before kindergarten (I watched Carl Sagan's "Cosmos" and "Nova" as young as 2 years old, read basic astronomy books by age 4 and had quite a firm grasp of relative sizes of celestial objects and how they acted by age 5. 

Planet X destroying the Earth is sheer nonsense.

I heard a giant scorpion was going to hatch from a furious suburban sun and rape the world to a very abused grave.

That's what I heard, anyway.

I read it in a factpaper.

always keep in mind that 'end of the world' is a very subjective thing- what the Mayans consider the end of the world may be something the rest of us barely care about


and considering the Mayans are all dead they probably had the date wrong anyways.

Besides end of the world is, to me, a pretty subjective term.  End of the world as we know it? (and I feel fine)  End of all life on earth?  End of all human life on earth?  Everything we know is this world changes?  While I don't hold to any form of pre-destiny, I think that if I was going to bother to, I'd be looking to worry about something a bit more specific than that.  Especially one that is translated from another culture, era and language.  Too much room for things to get mucked up there.

Quote from: rabid_fox on July 25, 2008, 10:15:13 PM

I heard a giant scorpion was going to hatch from a furious suburban sun and rape the world to a very abused grave.

That's what I heard, anyway.

I read it in a factpaper.

it's me, i'm the giant scorpion in this post

Stop raping me with your stinger, then, you baddie.

Oh whoopee, another end-of-the-world thread. What utter nonsense.

I'm pretty sure that loads of people have said "oh the world is going to end" on various dated which have already passed, and guess what? We're still here. It just sounds totally idiotic.

Random Citizen: The world is going to end!
Me: *Yawn*

...I was raised in the whole religion thing and i do think the world will end one day but I'm sick of people trying to predict it..seriously they say all these things getting my hopes up and then when the time comes the world is still in tact..well as in tact as it can be with the way things are going..

meh..my opinion doesn't really matter in these types of discussions, i guess id actually have to care about it all for my words to matter.

Wellp, back to running around aimlessly in edmonton :D

hrm...with a little bit of humility, and having read several things that DID NOT support my hypothesis about this date, my pov is being re-evaluated. For instance, and as a person said before, the passing of planet X has been miscalculated. This was for the spring of 2003. "Science" supposedly supported it.

Though, it just doesnt seem right how all these different cultures, particularly the Mayans, who predicted dead on when things would happen before, would be wrong. All things considered, I reserve judgement on 2012.

This has been bucking around politcal forums for oh since I started using political forums. You can go to this website to have a look at their 2012 threads which can get ugly or in depth:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/ (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/)

Anyway, I see it like this:
2012, Mayan calander ends on this day, cults say end of the world, non-cults as well, shoot just about anyone out there screams the sky is falling on 2012.

Hence: On December, whatever 2012 that the world is supposed to end, if it is going to end I suggest you get yourself:
1: A lawn chair
2: A cold drink
3: A pair of sunglasses
4: A good book.
Then just sit there and either read into boredom as the day passes or watch the fireworks as the world ends.

Then again, if the world is going to "end" I see it like this: either were all going to be dead, so no point in worrying about it, or as I believe, it means the end of one era and the begining of another.

I see armaggedon and 2012 as a "if anything happens" then it will just mean the end of one age and the begining of another for good or for evil.

Quote from: Vekar on July 27, 2008, 12:43:40 AM
This has been bucking around politcal forums for oh since I started using political forums. You can go to this website to have a look at their 2012 threads which can get ugly or in depth:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/ (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/)
1: A lawn chair
2: A cold drink
3: A pair of sunglasses
4: A good book.

i recommend 'good omens'

Quote from: Brunhidden on July 27, 2008, 02:24:13 AM

Quote from: Vekar on July 27, 2008, 12:43:40 AM
This has been bucking around politcal forums for oh since I started using political forums. You can go to this website to have a look at their 2012 threads which can get ugly or in depth:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/ (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/)
1: A lawn chair
2: A cold drink
3: A pair of sunglasses
4: A good book.

i recommend 'good omens'

I love Good Omens. I cannot recommend it enough. Heck, consider me a Pratchet fanboy: READ HIS BOOKS!!! (My favorite is tied between Hogfather and Witches Abroad, for the record.)

The Mayan calender does not end in 2012. It's basically the same as our year 10000 problem.

Perhaps future societies using a different calender will think that we predicted an apocalypse on their equivalent on 1st January, 10000 because most of our time pieces can't count above the year 9999.

You will be filing a 2012 Tax return so get back to work.

For a book to read on 2012 I would suggest "The Prince" by Niccolò Machiavelli or Sun Tzu: The Art of War. Two darn good books from different sides of the world that look at politics and war at two VERY different angles.

this is like... the third time I hear about a prophecy from nostradamus about the end of the world :P

Quote from: Kasarn on July 27, 2008, 02:35:02 AMThe Mayan calender does not end in 2012. It's basically the same as our year 10000 problem.

Perhaps future societies using a different calender will think that we predicted an apocalypse on their equivalent on 1st January, 10000 because most of our time pieces can't count above the year 9999.

Unlikely. systems are gradually switching to timestamp formats. Sure, 32-bit timestamps will expire exactly on Tuesday, January 19th 2038, 3:14:07 GMT time, but as computes quickly switch to 64-bit platforms we might as well expect the timestamps to switch to 64-bit format, which should expire on year 292271023045 (that's billions of years  >:3)

Quote from: Kasarn on July 27, 2008, 02:35:02 AM
The Mayan calender does not end in 2012. It's basically the same as our year 10000 problem.

Perhaps future societies using a different calender will think that we predicted an apocalypse on their equivalent on 1st January, 10000 because most of our time pieces can't count above the year 9999.

Actually their calendar does abruptly stop at december 21, 2012

Quote from: Archanon8957 on July 27, 2008, 11:47:17 PM

Quote from: Kasarn on July 27, 2008, 02:35:02 AM
The Mayan calender does not end in 2012. It's basically the same as our year 10000 problem.

Perhaps future societies using a different calender will think that we predicted an apocalypse on their equivalent on 1st January, 10000 because most of our time pieces can't count above the year 9999.

Actually there calendar does abruptly stop at december 21, 2012

It's our year 2012: it wasn't their year 2012, is what Kasarn I think is trying to say. Hold on... ah, Wikipedia does have an article on the Long Count calendar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_Long_Count_calendar)... why am I not surprised? Okay, for the Maya the date would have actually been more like "13.0.0.0.0," and there's some mentions of dates AFTER the end of the current calendar as well as a previous cycle that didn't seem to worry the Maya. In short, I'm not going to make a big deal out of it. To them, it might have been more like our year 2000 celebrations.

Jairus, you might have given us a bit more information from that article:

Quote from: Wikipedia
According to the Popol Vuh, a book compiling details of creation accounts known to the K'iche' Maya of the Colonial-era highlands, we are living in the fourth world.[8] The Popol Vuh describes the first three creations that the gods failed in making and the creation of the successful fourth world where men were placed. In the Maya Long Count, the previous creation ended at the start of a 13th b'ak'tun.

Quote from: Wikipedia
Maya stelae occasionally show dates beyond 2012. Most of these are in the form of "distance dates", where a Long Count date is given with a distance date to be added. For example, on the Tablet of Inscriptions from Palenque the following Long Count date was found: 9.8.9.13.0 8 Ahau 13 Pop (24 March 603 Gregorian) with a distance date of 10.11.10.5.8. The resulting date is given as 1.0.0.0.0.8 5 Lamat 1 Mol,[11] or 21 October 4772 – almost 3,000 years into the future. The king Pacal of Palenque predicted that on this date the eightieth Calendar Round anniversary of his accession will be celebrated, suggesting he did not believe the world would end in 2012.

(or that he was about as good with maths as our current leader. *zing*)

Quote from: Wikipedia
Despite the publicity generated by the 2012 date, Susan Milbrath, curator of Latin American Art and Archaeology at the Florida Museum of Natural History, stated that "We [the archaeological community] have no record or knowledge that [the Maya] would think the world would come to an end" in 2012.

In other words, it looks like the fear mongers and book writers just latched onto a few almost accurate key points and ran with it.

As for Nostradamus... it's easy to shoot a fish in a barrel if you use a shotgun and have thousands of people willing to look for events that appear to correlate over a thousand years. :P
I'll further add that I hope people are using Nostradamus quotes that are actually from his book of prophesy instead of something someone typed up to throw on the net.

Quote from: Jack McSlay on July 27, 2008, 11:26:59 PM

Quote from: Kasarn on July 27, 2008, 02:35:02 AMThe Mayan calender does not end in 2012. It's basically the same as our year 10000 problem.

Perhaps future societies using a different calender will think that we predicted an apocalypse on their equivalent on 1st January, 10000 because most of our time pieces can't count above the year 9999.

Unlikely. systems are gradually switching to timestamp formats. Sure, 32-bit timestamps will expire exactly on Tuesday, January 19th 2038, 3:14:07 GMT time, but as computes quickly switch to 64-bit platforms we might as well expect the timestamps to switch to 64-bit format, which should expire on year 292271023045 (that's billions of years  >:3)

How do you convert a common analog clock to 64-bit time? :rolleyes

its too bad we cant ask the mayans- chances are its their version of a cute kitty wall calender, and we just don't know where to get the next one with the horsies on it for next eon, always a popular holiday gift but try finding stores that specialize in them...

I think it was already covered in this thread, but it isn't so much that the Mayan calendar ends, it's just that an age ends.  The way I understand it, is that, that's much like the end of a calendar year, or millennium.  Just rolling over to a new age or calendar, much as what Brun alluded to in his post.  As for why they don't have a lot of info past that, it might have something to do with the fact that at the time, they were already getting pretty far ahead of themselves.  I think that were they still around as they were then, they've have the next age thought out pretty thoroughly as well.

Quote from: Jack McSlay on July 27, 2008, 11:26:59 PM
this is like... the third time I hear about a prophecy from nostradamus about the end of the world :P

Quote from: Kasarn on July 27, 2008, 02:35:02 AMThe Mayan calender does not end in 2012. It's basically the same as our year 10000 problem.

Perhaps future societies using a different calender will think that we predicted an apocalypse on their equivalent on 1st January, 10000 because most of our time pieces can't count above the year 9999.

Unlikely. systems are gradually switching to timestamp formats. Sure, 32-bit timestamps will expire exactly on Tuesday, January 19th 2038, 3:14:07 GMT time, but as computes quickly switch to 64-bit platforms we might as well expect the timestamps to switch to 64-bit format, which should expire on year 292271023045 (that's billions of years  >:3)

Oh noes!  On 292271023045 our computers will crash and bring chaos!  Whatever shall we do!   D:

Doomed in 292271023045.   :C

Quote from: Mowser on July 28, 2008, 09:27:26 AM
I think it was already covered in this thread, but it isn't so much that the Mayan calendar ends, it's just that an age ends

could it be that the Mayans foresaw this would be a specific new age? perhaps it is when we return to being a space faring race, as we briefly were in the 70s, if i recall the Mayans and Aztecs had images of people in what could be called space ships carved onto walls. or perhaps they saw it would be the end of the fossil fuel era, and the return to some mystical super power source of days long past like crystals or blood sacrifice

I have a little list of people I'd be prepared to start sacrificing, if it'd help the oil crisis...

The whole "global warming" thing actually reminds me a lot of a statement in the Bible. That the weather would suddenly start acting all wonky.

Tornadoes, earthquakes, and floods in places they don't usually happen? I recall hearing about that in the news, recently.

There's also the bit about the "lion laying with the lamb". I've been seeing a lot of pictures with tigers nursing pigs and whatnot.

I believe it also mentioned something about economy.

All coincidence? Maybe. I don't like dragging religion into things, because it only leads to argument. I will simply say that the Earth won't last forever. Whether it ends tomorrow, or another thousand years from now, it will happen.

Brun:
Others say it is proof that aliens have been to earth before long before anyone ever came up with the idea of a spaceship, such as the Aztecs and Quatzecoatle who was a tall, WHITE, black bearded man... When Cortez came they believed the gods had returned. Summerians also tell tales of the same "gods" coming to earth from the heavens and some Native American tribes believe the same.

You know what folks, I think it will be darn fun when 2012 comes around, we will either displess this as myth and nothing will happen or we are going to see some serious changes start to take hold here on the third rock from the sun.

Quote from: Fox on July 28, 2008, 08:59:24 PM
The whole "global warming" thing actually reminds me a lot of a statement in the Bible. That the weather would suddenly start acting all wonky.

Tornadoes, earthquakes, and floods in places they don't usually happen? I recall hearing about that in the news, recently.

There's also the bit about the "lion laying with the lamb". I've been seeing a lot of pictures with tigers nursing pigs and whatnot.

I believe it also mentioned something about economy.

All coincidence? Maybe. I don't like dragging religion into things, because it only leads to argument. I will simply say that the Earth won't last forever. Whether it ends tomorrow, or another thousand years from now, it will happen.

And the lord spake thus: the land shall rise up with great earchquakes, and the seas boil and be as blood, and the weather shall become quite wonky...

Just generally speaking, practically all 'prophets' predict great disasters, from the bible to Notradamus to Sylvia Browne.  Disasters happen all the time, and it's a safe bet to say that a river known for flooding will flood, a region known for storms will have one, and that there will be earthquakes in places prone to have them.  It's a great combination, prophetically speaking, of sensationalism and a safe bet, and if it doesn't happen, no one will think about it.

--edit--

Quote from: megreat earchquakes

great LlEarcth quakes

Quote from: Reese Tora on July 28, 2008, 11:06:55 PM
And the lord spake thus: the land shall rise up with great earchquakes, and the seas boil and be as blood, and the weather shall become quite wonky...

:bow

Sir, if I had a little more room in my signature, I'd put that in there. You just completely made my evening.

Quote from: Jairus on July 28, 2008, 11:12:30 PM

Quote from: Reese Tora on July 28, 2008, 11:06:55 PM
And the lord spake thus: the land shall rise up with great earchquakes, and the seas boil and be as blood, and the weather shall become quite wonky...

:bow

Sir, if I had a little more room in my signature, I'd put that in there. You just completely made my evening.

LOl!
That makes two.
I might've damaged my lungs i laughed so hard...took me completely by surprise

<---- Survivor of the Y2K Bug and many more FALSE Chicken Little Theories.   You WILL be going to work a day job in 2013.   :P

Quote from: Zorro on July 29, 2008, 03:30:32 AM
<---- Survivor of the Y2K Bug and many more FALSE Chicken Little Theories.   You WILL be going to work a day job in 2013.   :P

Of course. That's why I know we are all in hell.

Quote from: llearch n'n'daCorna on July 29, 2008, 08:13:04 AM

Quote from: Zorro on July 29, 2008, 03:30:32 AM
<---- Survivor of the Y2K Bug and many more FALSE Chicken Little Theories.   You WILL be going to work a day job in 2013.   :P

Of course. That's why I know we are all in hell.

except for me, i will be working nights and have a summer cottage in purgatory

So llearch you live above my place then, the burning cauldron of fire, torture and endless torment. Nice to know your neighbors.

World will still be here in 2012, 2013, 2050, 2100, 40,000, 80,000 folks, unless someone finds a way to make the earth implode. It is a question of how many humans will be left by then if any.

I understand our galaxy is going to collide with the Andromeda galaxy at some point. They say that might do unpleasant things to our humble solar system. I also understand it's also not going to happen in 2012, however.

Actually if you consider how slow the galaxies in general move... The sun will probably be burnt out long before it ever gets to us. I do believe we need another 500 million years for the galaxy to simply cycle us around to the other side as it currently stands. Sun dies in 6 billion years.
Dont worry, by then humanity is going to be gone or moved to another galaxy or plain of existence perhaps.

The end of the world is a tricky business, but ultimately has two rules.  You have to have something that is in the future, but not so far into the future that people will ignore it.  Second, when you are wrong don't admit to it or apologize, make a new prediction instead.

Plus before the sun dies there is another star that is not to far away that will explode and cause a wave of gamma rays that will probably kill everything on Earth.

http://www.exitmundi.nl/

Not sure if everybody has ever been to this site...

Couple of good End of the World scenarios here, a nice read if at the least.

Quote from: Reese Tora on July 28, 2008, 11:06:55 PM
And the lord spake thus: the land shall rise up with great earchquakes, and the seas boil and be as blood, and the weather shall become quite wonky...

Well, we had a quite nice 5.3 (I heard 5.7 but it was revised) earthquake today here in California, the shimy 'n shake sunshine state, so if the seas boil and become as blood, you'll know I'm on to something. :P

(see, that's how psychics become 'accurate'; you latch onto anything that they get even remotely right, and, as Shades mentioned, ignore what they get wrong.  A one in a million correct result is not so impressive when you realize that a million guesses were made.)

What I believe about Dec. 21st, 2012 won't have much relevance to the topic (since it'd be repeating the whole "I don't believe shit's gonna happen"),  but I will make a prediction for the 20 days leading up to it, and I'm thinking it's most likely to come true by 11:59 PM, Dec. 20th, 2012, maybe a short time later.

And that prediction is:  plans for a mass suicide or two (or twenty) will be partially or fully formed by then, and on the 20th, the event will come close to being carried out.  Some might drink the cheap kool-aid knockoff laced with poison like that one cult did a couple decades back.

Now, as far as the world "ending as we know it," well... think of it.  That's happened at least once in the past hundred years.  the world of the 21st century is completely different from the world of the early part of the cold war, which itself was vastly different from the world of the first two decades of the last century.

Looking at the thing with the Mayan calendar, I don't think it's anything other than their version of the millenium thing from eight years ago.  Besides, if you're going to create calendars that have that long of a time span on them, it'd be pointless to get the next ones made until a few years before they're actually going to be needed.  That's like going out right now and getting a calendar for the year 2046.  Why the HELL would you need a calender for a year (and maybe two months extra at each end) when that particular year is 38 years away?  That makes as much sense as a hotdog made of rolled up lettuce or something.

Quote from: Alkarii on July 30, 2008, 06:14:39 AM
And that prediction is:  plans for a mass suicide or two (or twenty) will be partially or fully formed by then, and on the 20th, the event will come close to being carried out.

and thus we celebrate the stupid exterminating themselves

Quote from: Brunhidden on July 30, 2008, 09:14:05 AM

Quote from: Alkarii on July 30, 2008, 06:14:39 AM
And that prediction is:  plans for a mass suicide or two (or twenty) will be partially or fully formed by then, and on the 20th, the event will come close to being carried out.

and thus we celebrate the stupid exterminating themselves

Natural selection in progress!   I shall start such a cult myself, and make sure they all give me their money before they off themselves.  Then I'll hide in Costa Rica with the riches.  But I have to make sure I drink the safe Kool-Aid!   :S

Quote from: Kasarn on July 28, 2008, 12:47:05 AM

Quote from: Jack McSlay on July 27, 2008, 11:26:59 PM

Quote from: Kasarn on July 27, 2008, 02:35:02 AMThe Mayan calender does not end in 2012. It's basically the same as our year 10000 problem.

Perhaps future societies using a different calender will think that we predicted an apocalypse on their equivalent on 1st January, 10000 because most of our time pieces can't count above the year 9999.

Unlikely. systems are gradually switching to timestamp formats. Sure, 32-bit timestamps will expire exactly on Tuesday, January 19th 2038, 3:14:07 GMT time, but as computes quickly switch to 64-bit platforms we might as well expect the timestamps to switch to 64-bit format, which should expire on year 292271023045 (that's billions of years  >:3)

How do you convert a common analog clock to 64-bit time? :rolleyes

Well, the same way you do to get a 32-bit timestamp, but just using 64 bits(with dates that can be expressed in 32 bits, the other 32 will be 0's).

A unix timestamp, like what we are talking about here, is the number of seconds sense January 1st, 1970, GMT. As such, it is hard but not extremely hard to calculate it by hand/create a formula for doing so, and most programming and scripting languages provide a built-in function for doing so.

Quote from: llearch n'n'daCorna on July 28, 2008, 05:32:55 PM
I have a little list of people I'd be prepared to start sacrificing, if it'd help the oil crisis...

I immediately thought of This (http://www.daveross.com/songs/mikado1.mp3).


-RobbieThe1st

Quote from: RobbieThe1st on August 01, 2008, 11:50:26 PM

Quote from: Kasarn on July 28, 2008, 12:47:05 AM

Quote from: Jack McSlay on July 27, 2008, 11:26:59 PM

Quote from: Kasarn on July 27, 2008, 02:35:02 AMThe Mayan calender does not end in 2012. It's basically the same as our year 10000 problem.

Perhaps future societies using a different calender will think that we predicted an apocalypse on their equivalent on 1st January, 10000 because most of our time pieces can't count above the year 9999.

Unlikely. systems are gradually switching to timestamp formats. Sure, 32-bit timestamps will expire exactly on Tuesday, January 19th 2038, 3:14:07 GMT time, but as computes quickly switch to 64-bit platforms we might as well expect the timestamps to switch to 64-bit format, which should expire on year 292271023045 (that's billions of years  >:3)

How do you convert a common analog clock to 64-bit time? :rolleyes

Well, the same way you do to get a 32-bit timestamp, but just using 64 bits(with dates that can be expressed in 32 bits, the other 32 will be 0's).

A unix timestamp, like what we are talking about here, is the number of seconds sense January 1st, 1970, GMT. As such, it is hard but not extremely hard to calculate it by hand/create a formula for doing so, and most programming and scripting languages provide a built-in function for doing so.

Write ten thousand in numeric form using only four digits.

Quote from: Kasarn on August 02, 2008, 12:33:49 AM
Write ten thousand in numeric form using only four digits.

assuming we're even using the christian-centric dating method in 7992 years, and that no one in that time frame can be bothered to redign clocks to handle a fifth digit, and that people don't continue to use '08 style shorthand to refer to the year... which would be a powerful clue to any future researchers that a lack of digits for recording doesn't mean a belief that there's no more to record beyond those digits.

ten thousand rendered in four digits:
2710h

(the 'h' does not cound as a digit, it is an indicator of what system of numbering is used, much like prepending a '$' when refering to money.  I would ahve used the more standard 0x, but you might have nitpicked that my indicator contains a digit. :P I suspect you'll rather compklain that my number is not in decimal notation)

Of course, you could tell me that I can use no more than 4 characters to write it.  I might try to write it as 10k, but I can't find a proper definition of the term 'numeric form' in order to twist it to my will, and all the references I can find seem to indicate that shorthand notation would not count as numerc form.  Since "Numeric form" does not appear to be a properly defined term, there's nothing saying that hexidecimal can't be used.

Back to the actual point, the Mayan calendar is significant only in that the age ends at a point in their calendar where there are more digits that can fit in the highest valued place. (stopping at 13 where they had 20 digits, though an earlier place in their calendar notation only goes to 18 out of 20 before incrementing the next place and reseting to 0)
The actual calendar is capable of recording dates beyond this point without adding any places.  Were the mayan calendar to 'end' by running out of digits (like flipping from 9999 to 0000 on a four decimal character display)  on the 2012 date instead of some book saying the last age ended after that period of time, it wouldn't have been notable; our year 2012 in their notation is the equivalent to our year 2000 in our own notation.

Quote from: Reese Tora on August 02, 2008, 03:07:18 AM

Quote from: Kasarn on August 02, 2008, 12:33:49 AM
Write ten thousand in numeric form using only four digits.

assuming we're even using the christian-centric dating method in 7992 years, and that no one in that time frame can be bothered to redign clocks to handle a fifth digit, and that people don't continue to use '08 style shorthand to refer to the year... which would be a powerful clue to any future researchers that a lack of digits for recording doesn't mean a belief that there's no more to record beyond those digits.

ten thousand rendered in four digits:
2710h

(the 'h' does not cound as a digit, it is an indicator of what system of numbering is used, much like prepending a '$' when refering to money.  I would ahve used the more standard 0x, but you might have nitpicked that my indicator contains a digit. :P I suspect you'll rather compklain that my number is not in decimal notation)

Of course, you could tell me that I can use no more than 4 characters to write it.  I might try to write it as 10k, but I can't find a proper definition of the term 'numeric form' in order to twist it to my will, and all the references I can find seem to indicate that shorthand notation would not count as numerc form.  Since "Numeric form" does not appear to be a properly defined term, there's nothing saying that hexidecimal can't be used.

Back to the actual point, the Mayan calendar is significant only in that the age ends at a point in their calendar where there are more digits that can fit in the highest valued place. (stopping at 13 where they had 20 digits, though an earlier place in their calendar notation only goes to 18 out of 20 before incrementing the next place and reseting to 0)
The actual calendar is capable of recording dates beyond this point without adding any places.  Were the mayan calendar to 'end' by running out of digits (like flipping from 9999 to 0000 on a four decimal character display)  on the 2012 date instead of some book saying the last age ended after that period of time, it wouldn't have been notable; our year 2012 in their notation is the equivalent to our year 2000 in our own notation.

I lol'd

Quote tree :D

I've always thought of it as a "quote pyramid."

And no, I'm not going to continue it.

I always saw it revered to as a quote tower... though tree is much more appropriate, since I was planning on pruning it to size if I replied to it again. ;)

Quote from: Reese Tora on August 02, 2008, 04:11:07 AM
I always saw it revered to as a quote tower... though tree is much more appropriate, since I was planning on pruning it to size if I replied to it again. ;)

Just replace all of the quotes with *snip* and you'd have your tree pruned right down!

Quote from: Reese Tora on August 02, 2008, 03:07:18 AM

Quote from: Kasarn on August 02, 2008, 12:33:49 AM
Write ten thousand in numeric form using only four digits.

assuming we're even using the christian-centric dating method in 7992 years, and that no one in that time frame can be bothered to redign clocks to handle a fifth digit, and that people don't continue to use '08 style shorthand to refer to the year... which would be a powerful clue to any future researchers that a lack of digits for recording doesn't mean a belief that there's no more to record beyond those digits.

ten thousand rendered in four digits:
2710h

(the 'h' does not cound as a digit, it is an indicator of what system of numbering is used, much like prepending a '$' when refering to money.  I would ahve used the more standard 0x, but you might have nitpicked that my indicator contains a digit. :P I suspect you'll rather compklain that my number is not in decimal notation)

Of course, you could tell me that I can use no more than 4 characters to write it.  I might try to write it as 10k, but I can't find a proper definition of the term 'numeric form' in order to twist it to my will, and all the references I can find seem to indicate that shorthand notation would not count as numerc form.  Since "Numeric form" does not appear to be a properly defined term, there's nothing saying that hexidecimal can't be used.

Back to the actual point, the Mayan calendar is significant only in that the age ends at a point in their calendar where there are more digits that can fit in the highest valued place. (stopping at 13 where they had 20 digits, though an earlier place in their calendar notation only goes to 18 out of 20 before incrementing the next place and reseting to 0)
The actual calendar is capable of recording dates beyond this point without adding any places.  Were the mayan calendar to 'end' by running out of digits (like flipping from 9999 to 0000 on a four decimal character display)  on the 2012 date instead of some book saying the last age ended after that period of time, it wouldn't have been notable; our year 2012 in their notation is the equivalent to our year 2000 in our own notation.

+1
Honestly, I was going to say exactly that, and you said it better than I could have.

I was doing some calculations, and Hm... Hex is one thing, but with existing letters, you could go to 32 - 5 bits, with 0-W. Granted, it wouldn't be a nibble per character, but it is possible... And, in base 32, 10000 is "9OG" (the O is the letter O).
Edit: I found that there IS is base-32 being used, but it uses different letters(see below). my scheme is shown here as "base-32R" where as the real one is "Base32".
Other calculations wise:

Decimal	Binary	Octal	Hexadecimal	base-32R	Base32
10000	0010011100010000	23420	2710	9OG	IXP
65535	1111111111111111	177777	FFFF	1www	A777
4294967295	11111111111111111111111111111111	37777777777	FFFFFFFF	3WWWWWW	C777777

...Sorry. I recently learned a reasonably easy way of calculating decimal > any base, and any base > decimal conversions, so obviously I have to show off my new-found knowledge.
edit: And, I just learned that there *IS* a base-32, and instead of using 0-W, it uses A-7(ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ234567)... ah well...


-RobbieThe1st

So, tell me again how 64-bit time solves the Year 10000 problem?

Quote from: Kasarn on August 02, 2008, 04:34:48 AM
So, tell me again how 64-bit time solves the Year 10000 problem?

Because, you aren't saving your years as a discrete number - you are saving the date and time as a single number, from which the date and time can be calculated. This means that there is no four decimal digits which roll over - it would just add a fifth digit. And a sixth. And so on and so forth. It wouldn't run into any trouble for a ridiculously long time. Now, sure, if you have a display with four date digits, it will roll over to 0000, but internally, it will still know what year it is, and as such will not have any trouble. Remember also, that computers store all numbers as binary, and unless they are using wasteful BCD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary-coded_decimal) to store the number, at 9999 it should have no trouble. Of course, it will have trouble when it reaches the maximum storable number, but if it is storing it as a Unix timestamp, 64 bits...  that is going to be in 292 billion years or so, which is a *long* time.


Of course, with smaller computers, like a digital wrist watch for example, they are designed to roll over at a more "normal" number - like every year, or every hundred years. With a system like this, it really doesn't matter, because you generally *know* the year or century.


-RobbieThe1st

 :rolleyes It's clear you don't actually understand the problem because you've just agreed with me.


The year 10000 problem:
If the display only has four digits with which to display the year, then you cannot display a five (or more) digit year.

64 bit time:
Stores the number of seconds from the year 1970 as a 64 bits integer.


Now, in order for 64-bit time to be human readable, it first needs to be converted to YYYYMMDD hh:mm:ss, which is where the problem actually occurs. The time being stored as 64 bits does nothing to alter the actual problem.

The solution, as you have just so aptly pointed out is that you add a fifth digit to the year display. However, as you have also pointed out, not all devices can display a fifth digit, which leaves us with the original problem.

Which is where we get back to the Mayan calender: In 2012, it hits it's own version of 9999. It can't count any further without being reset to all zeroes. Therefore, I joked that, in the future, people who are using a different calender might think that we predicted an apocalypse on 10000/01/01 because our four digit displays stop at 9999.

Quote from: Kasarn on August 02, 2008, 05:29:03 AM
:rolleyes It's clear you don't actually understand the problem because you've just agreed with me.


The year 10000 problem:
If the display only has four digits with which to display the year, then you cannot display a five (or more) digit year.

64 bit time:
Stores the number of seconds from the year 1970 as a 64 bits integer.


Now, in order for 64-bit time to be human readable, it first needs to be converted to YYYYMMDD hh:mm:ss, which is where the problem actually occurs. The time being stored as 64 bits does nothing to alter the actual problem.

The solution, as you have just so aptly pointed out is that you add a fifth digit to the year display. However, as you have also pointed out, not all devices can display a fifth digit, which leaves us with the original problem.

Which is where we get back to the Mayan calender: In 2012, it hits it's own version of 9999. It can't count any further without being reset to all zeroes. Therefore, I joked that, in the future, people who are using a different calender might think that we predicted an apocalypse on 10000/01/01 because our four digit displays stop at 9999.

That makes sense. However, that isn't quite what you said earlier.

Also, after reading on Wikipedia about the Mayan Long Count (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_Long_Count_calendar#2012_and_the_Long_Count) calendar, it appears that it would be more like our year 2000 problem than our year 10000 problem - 2012 is not end of the calendar, just the rollover date of the least four digits - the first is at 12 now, and would simply go up to 13! Now, sure, 'last time' the world 'ended' at this exact time, but that doesn't mean all that much - just that it 'ended' at this time. There is no reason for it to end 'this time' on that date, and even if the calendar was designed to predict some major event, it may come early or late.



-RobbieThe1st

Quote from: Kasarn on August 02, 2008, 03:43:23 AM
I lol'd

Quote tree :D

I didn't. *snip*

as aliens try to take over the world, the bermuda trinagle spits out everyone it took, and all the mysterious native American tribes who disappeared come back. all in the same year i might add. it just comforts your heart to know that at the very least all the idiots in the world will finally get what they want as the trully smart people get the girl... of course anyone who even set fourth on 4chan is going to be the first to go down.

I heard somewhere that 'End of days' was meant to be the end of religious belief and the start of a new state of enlightenment, somehow it end up as the end of the world.

Although I guess if your a corrupt preacher raking in the cash from the believers, end of faith would be the end of the world for you.

Quote from: MT Hazard on August 03, 2008, 08:13:58 PM
I heard somewhere that 'End of days' was meant to be the end of religious belief and the start of a new state of enlightenment, somehow it end up as the end of the world.

Although I guess if your a corrupt preacher raking in the cash from the believers, end of faith would be the end of the world for you.

Actually, religious belief is an innate part of human nature.  You simply feel compelled to worship things that are greater than yourself be it money, political power, science, enlightenment, God, gods, community, military might, etc.

So essentially the only time there can be an end of faith/religious belief would be when humanity ceases to be, or ceases to be lower than any other entity and given the vast range of entities be it man-made or mystical, the idea that we will cease to have entites that are more powerful than any single individual is laughable at best.

In a way I could argue that much of economics, politics, and science is about man creating a god he can controll, or at least appear to controll.

Its hard to say what will happen..  honestly a part of me wouldn't mind these prophecies being true because it'd point to there being something beyond the physical world...  but would be a pretty steep cost.  I don't think the world is going to end persay, but I get this nagging feeling that something big might happen...  maybe.  Hard telling.

Quote from: Valynth on August 03, 2008, 11:44:43 PM

Quote from: MT Hazard on August 03, 2008, 08:13:58 PM
I heard somewhere that 'End of days' was meant to be the end of religious belief and the start of a new state of enlightenment, somehow it end up as the end of the world.

Although I guess if your a corrupt preacher raking in the cash from the believers, end of faith would be the end of the world for you.

Actually, religious belief is an innate part of human nature.  You simply feel compelled to worship things that are greater than yourself be it money, political power, science, enlightenment, God, gods, community, military might, etc.

So essentially the only time there can be an end of faith/religious belief would be when humanity ceases to be, or ceases to be lower than any other entity and given the vast range of entities be it man-made or mystical, the idea that we will cease to have entites that are more powerful than any single individual is laughable at best.

In a way I could argue that much of economics, politics, and science is about man creating a god he can controll, or at least appear to controll.

So if we become more than human, does that fulfil both conditions? An end of faith and the end of humanity?

I don't feel completed to worship anything, as do a lot of people, does that make them inhuman?

Quote from: Kasarn on August 02, 2008, 05:29:03 AMThe solution, as you have just so aptly pointed out is that you add a fifth digit to the year display. However, as you have also pointed out, not all devices can display a fifth digit, which leaves us with the original problem.

I question how many of today's devices will be alive nearly 8000 years from now anyway.

I might point out I tried to display the 9223372036854775807 (maximum number for a 64-bit integer) timestamp once and my pc took several seconds to do so, but that woudn't be an issue on computers millions of times more powerful than mine we might have on year 9999.

The only reason of concern in the computing area are the extinction of free IP adresses. They're estimated to run out in 2010-2011, with IPv6 transition apparently not being efficient enough

Quote from: Jack McSlay on August 04, 2008, 11:34:58 AM

Quote from: Kasarn on August 02, 2008, 05:29:03 AMThe solution, as you have just so aptly pointed out is that you add a fifth digit to the year display. However, as you have also pointed out, not all devices can display a fifth digit, which leaves us with the original problem.

I question how many of today's devices will be alive nearly 8000 years from now anyway.

That's the point of the scenario I gave.
In our society, using the Gregorian calender, how many people use the Mayan calender? Not many, so we can pretty much say whatever we like about it and there are few people to correct misconceptions.
In a future society, using a different calender, how many people will use the Gregorian calender? Not many, so they can pretty much say whatever they like about it and there would be few people to correct misconceptions.

Quote from: Kasarn on August 04, 2008, 07:42:44 PM

Quote from: Jack McSlay on August 04, 2008, 11:34:58 AM

Quote from: Kasarn on August 02, 2008, 05:29:03 AMThe solution, as you have just so aptly pointed out is that you add a fifth digit to the year display. However, as you have also pointed out, not all devices can display a fifth digit, which leaves us with the original problem.

I question how many of today's devices will be alive nearly 8000 years from now anyway.

That's the point of the scenario I gave.
In our society, using the Gregorian calender, how many people use the Mayan calender? Not many, so we can pretty much say whatever we like about it and there are few people to correct misconceptions.
In a future society, using a different calender, how many people will use the Gregorian calender? Not many, so they can pretty much say whatever they like about it and there would be few people to correct misconceptions.

You know, Archaeologists aren't sure if the Mayan calendar rolls over to the next piktun starts when the mayan calendar would reach 13 B'ak'tun(December 20, 2012), or when it reaches the end of the possible cycle (ie: when it reaches 20 B'ak'tun, roughly 2786 years from now, 1,049,263 days after December 20th, 2012)

If their calendar continues out to 20 B'ak'tun, the first date is, as I mentioned, their equivalent to a big round number like our year 2000, the second is their equivalent to our reaching the year 10000. (a bigger round number, for those playing at home.)

Of course, if there were a fencepost error in translation, it could be the important day could actually 13.19.19.17.19 or 14.0.0.0.0, which is about 510 years from now. :) (And I bet that someone will pring that up if modern civilization is at all around in five hundred years. :P )

Quote from: MT Hazard on August 04, 2008, 06:37:17 AM

Quote from: Valynth on August 03, 2008, 11:44:43 PM

Quote from: MT Hazard on August 03, 2008, 08:13:58 PM
I heard somewhere that 'End of days' was meant to be the end of religious belief and the start of a new state of enlightenment, somehow it end up as the end of the world.

Although I guess if your a corrupt preacher raking in the cash from the believers, end of faith would be the end of the world for you.

Actually, religious belief is an innate part of human nature.  You simply feel compelled to worship things that are greater than yourself be it money, political power, science, enlightenment, God, gods, community, military might, etc.

So essentially the only time there can be an end of faith/religious belief would be when humanity ceases to be, or ceases to be lower than any other entity and given the vast range of entities be it man-made or mystical, the idea that we will cease to have entities that are more powerful than any single individual is laughable at best.

In a way I could argue that much of economics, politics, and science is about man creating a god he can controll, or at least appear to controll.

So if we become more than human, does that fulfil both conditions? An end of faith and the end of humanity?

I don't feel completed to worship anything, as do a lot of people, does that make them inhuman?

You worship without knowing you worship and there is lies the pitfalls of the human-made dieties.  For example, the president of the United States wields power over a population of 300+ million.  How is he able to do so?  Simple.  He is impowered by his followers through prayers(votes) and the various pantheons of lower dieties(advisers, congressmen, etc).

Just by the fact you willingly give anything outside yourself more power than you yourself can create, you are, in a sense, worshiping it.  And while the power said philosophy or agency would gain from a single individual is less than the total psychological power of the person, the fact that it can gain worship from multiple people allows said superior entity to assume a near godlike power to the single individuals that looks at the philosophy/agency.

For example, just look at economics.  It's all about who believes what about what product.  The product could be completely useless to everyone, but if some one who has gained enough respect(or worship) wants an item, said item suddenly becomes the most valuable thing on the economic market.

In short, what I'm arguing is that A)  Humans need a hierarchy in order to function peacefully, B)  Humans that are lower in the hierarchy look up to those above them, and C) The power that determines much of the hierarchy is psychological and therefore can't be universally quantified.  Notice how I avoided using numbers throughout my reasoning and that numbers don't necessarily reflect power.

For December 21, 2012

My Prediction is: Nothing happens at all. Just life as usual. BUT if the world does end I think it will be fun to watch.

People have been trying to predict the end of the world since.... the beginning of the world. If it ends, great. If it doesn't, great.

Quote from: aserath on August 05, 2008, 11:58:30 PM
For December 21, 2012

My Prediction is: Nothing happens at all. Just life as usual. BUT if the world does end I think it will be fun to watch.

It seems that the more widely know an end date is the more likely it is wrong.....The Mayan calendar ends on this date, because the planetary plane and the galaxy plane of the Milky Way line up.  Now the New Agers think that something will happen to Earth when it lines up the center of the galaxy. 

But I am more worry about a rogue planet 4-8 times the mass of the Earth headed this way.  It is orbit is said to be nearly 90 degree off the ecliptic. It's closest flyby to Earth in the late spring and summer 2012.  It will not bring the end of the world, but the destruction it causes will make it easier for a one world government to take over.

I am soon the government will have It's favorite people hidden away somewhere before then.

PBH

Quote from: Prof B Hunnydew on August 12, 2008, 11:16:37 PMThe Mayan calendar ends on this date, because the planetary plane and the galaxy plane of the Milky Way line up.  Now the New Agers think that something will happen to Earth when it lines up the center of the galaxy. 

That's a new one by me, do you have a source onn that?(sounds more like something some newager scare monger made up)

Quote from: Prof B Hunnydew on August 12, 2008, 11:16:37 PMBut I am more worry about a rogue planet 4-8 times the mass of the Earth headed this way.  It is orbit is said to be nearly 90 degree off the ecliptic. It's closest flyby to Earth in the late spring and summer 2012.  It will not bring the end of the world, but the destruction it causes will make it easier for a one world government to take over.

Ah, the infamous planet X, which doesn't actually exist.
No, it's not being hidden, something like that would be easily detected both for that it would have a gravitational effect on everything else and for that it would have to intersect the plane of the ecliptic near where the earth's orbit is, and it would be anywhere from 1.6 to 2 times as far across, with the amount of mass you cited, making it clearly visible in previous passes through the solar system(Mars and Venus are both clearly visible  in the sky where the sun does not hide them, and both are roughly the same diameter as earth... mars is 2.3 AU from us at this moment and still clearly visible, planet X could be no more than 2 AU from us as it passes through the plane of the ecliptic), which would have had to occur with a relatively short period(say something in the range of the outer planets' orbital periods at the higher end).  It would have been noted by ancient peoples as the other planets were

In any case, the discovery of such a body could not be covered up because it would be announced discovered long before it was discovered that it had any sort of apocalyptic course, and it would still be easily detectable to other astronomers.

--edit--

I suggest watching some videos from Phil Plait, AKA The Bad Astronomer
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheBadAstronomer

USA TODAY on the Mayan's end times. (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2007-03-27-maya-2012_n.htm) 

I don't share the believe about the Mayan's calendar, and the alignment of the solar system and the galaxy, But the above link tells something about the debate...

I will and my links on planet X later....

:mowcookie
PBH

I had a dream Saturday night about the world getting smacked by a planet and blowing up!  But it wasn't Planet X!  No no, it was dwarf planet Eris, knocked from its oribit and sent careening toward us by a passing black hole!  IT COULD HAPPEN!  WHICH MEANS IT WILL!!!   D:

It was a cool dream.  It was in snippets of a number of days as it got closer and closer, always getting larger in the twilight sky (as it was heading toward Earth at an oblique angle from behind, which meant its impact was a relatively slow collision and made possible what happened last in the dream... which was the impact itself.  The planets smooshed together, opening up huge volcanic rifts all over the Earth and destroying all life as the heat of impact liquified both worlds (and thus a brand new planet came to be, I guess.  The dream ended after I died.)   :P

It was quite a neat dream, as my brain is excellent with details.  For instance, Eris had a huge cometary halo as it approached, a consequence of its frozen nitrogen and other gasses heating and escaping as it drew in toward the Sun.  It was just so realistic.  I could even feel the heat of the lava as the cracks opened up and every living thing perished.

But you know... it wasn't just a dream... IT WAS A VISION OF THE FUTURE!  REPENT FOR THE END IS NEAR!  WE SHALL ALL BE BURNINATED!!!   D:

There's no hope now.  Clearly, I have been given the image of our doom.  Well, only one thing left to do!   :redrum

PS:  I suppose I should start a cult too.

I think 2012 is when Alondro is going to execute his plan. >.> I'm onto you.

and then alondo's plan interferes with inks plan, and the resulting scuffle alerts some other big nasties that just want to join in for fun

Oh great, they'll wake Cthulhu, won't they?

Quote from: Jairus on August 13, 2008, 03:46:46 PM
Oh great, they'll wake Cthulhu, won't they?

who, sushi face? i think he has been taken care of in a not pretty manner, which is not comforting as it leaves whatever bumped him off to deal with

Quote from: Brunhidden on August 13, 2008, 06:21:54 PM

Quote from: Jairus on August 13, 2008, 03:46:46 PM
Oh great, they'll wake Cthulhu, won't they?

who, sushi face? i think he has been taken care of in a not pretty manner, which is not comforting as it leaves whatever bumped him off to deal with

So what could defeat Cthulhu? Oh, right... this guy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Comicbook/Batman).

Global warming destroyed Cthulhu by causing a dinoflagellate bloom in the ocean where he dwelt!

GLOBAL WARMING CAUSES EVERYTHING BAD!!!

Quote from: Alondro on August 14, 2008, 04:08:44 PM
Global warming destroyed Cthulhu by causing a dinoflagellate bloom in the ocean where he dwelt!

GLOBAL WARMING CAUSES EVERYTHING BAD!!!

Be careful with that, that sounds like a memetic mutation in the works there.

Okay, So the Planet X sites are run by a branch of wackos.  A dwarf star? that would too big not to be notice by someone, but they could right.. A few of extra-solar planets, new Jupiter size planets in other star system, have been find to have an wide elliptical orbits, so it is possible smaller planet could have a comet-like orbits.   

Yet  If a planet is on this way here, that it was the 4x times the earth size with very dark surface.  Then it could blindsided us by coming up from the south pole.  Even NASA has said this is possible.

www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/asteroids_miss_020319.html (http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/asteroids_miss_020319.html)
www.space.com/scienceastronomy/asteroid_close_041222.html (http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/asteroid_close_041222.html)

Ancient civilization accounts..?
This is hard to find, I would like to say the Exodus(1550-1300), but the plagues of Egypt could have be just cause by a volcanic eruption.  The great Flood is more likely. Some have sited Sumerian's has having knowledge of Uranus and Neptune also have an account of a Planet X, Nibiru.  This is not held as creditable by the main scientific community.

PBH

I vote Ragnarok. Then again, if the truth were democratic, things would be a lot more screwed up than they already are.

Ragnarok? The death of the gods?

Quote from: Yugo on August 15, 2008, 01:54:46 AM
I vote Ragnarok. Then again, if the truth were democratic, things would be a lot more screwed up than they already are.

one philosophy states that Ragnarök already happened, the legend itself stating that after the 'end of the world' a few humans survive, and then repopulate the world. also, two dead gods- the twins Baldur the beautiful and Hod the blind- also survive.

could it very well be that the entire Aesir mythology has already played out, and the twin gods have been recognized as different divine entities

Either way, we'd better watch out for that three season long winter.

Pfft, sounds like your average year in Canada. :P  I still remember the day I saw it snow in earnest in July.  I've only seen it a few times in my life but I never cease to be amazed by it.  Though things like that lead to the many stereotypes that get on my nerves to no end.

Quote from: Mowser on August 15, 2008, 05:51:47 PM
Pfft, sounds like your average year in Canada. :P  I still remember the day I saw it snow in earnest in July.  I've only seen it a few times in my life but I never cease to be amazed by it.  Though things like that lead to the many stereotypes that get on my nerves to no end.

Wot stereotypes are you talking aboot, Mowser, eh?

Forget about 2012....

The way, the "Axis of Evil" seems to be raising up (Iran, North Korea, Venezuela and now Russia)
With The NATO being held hostage by Russia with Russian oil and gas.  USA bogged down in Iraq and it is threaten by Iran closing the Persian Gulf.  We can't do anything for Georgia. 

All we need now is another Israel-Arab war.  We are sunk

World War III is closing than ever.   

PBH

Quote from: Archanon8957 on July 25, 2008, 02:56:10 AM
Einstein said once that if all the worlds bees disappeared mankind would have 4 years to live. Well, 90% of them are missing...indeed, not dead, but missing. They have not been able to recover the bee bodies.

Source of this please.
I'm having a hard time believing that 90% of the world bees are currently missing.

Personally, I'd like a source for the Einstein quote.

It wasn't really his field, but then, he was a very bright person... so knowing why and when he said it would be interesting.

Quote from: Zina on August 16, 2008, 10:44:38 AM

Quote from: Archanon8957 on July 25, 2008, 02:56:10 AM
Einstein said once that if all the worlds bees disappeared mankind would have 4 years to live. Well, 90% of them are missing...indeed, not dead, but missing. They have not been able to recover the bee bodies.

Well one thing from the Bible says that when a man lays dead in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 days then rises up again that will be a signal of the end. Does that mean we're going to have a zombie apocalypse? I dunno what's going to happen. I think the way the end of the world should happen though is everybody is just dead. Nobody ever knows what hit them.

Quote from: Zina on August 16, 2008, 10:44:38 AM

Quote from: Archanon8957 on July 25, 2008, 02:56:10 AM
Einstein said once that if all the worlds bees disappeared mankind would have 4 years to live. Well, 90% of them are missing...indeed, not dead, but missing. They have not been able to recover the bee bodies.

Source of this please.
I'm having a hard time believing that 90% of the world bees are currently missing.

If you're missing some bees, I seem to have found them. Up in Davis where I live, I encounted two fairly big hives in one day... about thirty or forty feet apart. Now, my little brother is really really freaked out by bees (I know it's not funny to laugh, but even the idea of a bee being close makes him jumpy), but even that made me a little nervous.

Disappeared bees? Well, I can see why it'd be bad, especially since bees are so necessary for pollination, but really? Disappeared bees as a sign of the apocalypse? Maybe someone should make up a fake Nostradamus prediction and say that he predicted this, that'll get people interested. (If you can't pick it up, I think that Nostradamus was a load of BS.)

Quote from: Rakala on August 16, 2008, 10:53:09 AM

Quote from: Zina on August 16, 2008, 10:44:38 AM

Quote from: Archanon8957 on July 25, 2008, 02:56:10 AM
Einstein said once that if all the worlds bees disappeared mankind would have 4 years to live. Well, 90% of them are missing...indeed, not dead, but missing. They have not been able to recover the bee bodies.

Well one thing from the Bible says that when a man lays dead in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 days then rises up again that will be a signal of the end. Does that mean we're going to have a zombie apocalypse? I dunno what's going to happen. I think the way the end of the world should happen though is everybody is just dead. Nobody ever knows what hit them.

ON BEES being missing===>Sweet honey bees (http://www.askquestions.org/details.php?id=9286&gclid=CJDqidrSkpUCFQYcHgoduF6hfw)

No During the Great Tribulation, It says that God's witnesses (two) will allow to be struck down by the Anti-christ, and will lay in the street of Jerusalem for 3 days.

Revelation 11:3-12 (King James Version)

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.   4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.  5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.  6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.    7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.    8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.    9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.    10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.    11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.    12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

But Wormwood the "Star" should appear first and lay waste to a third of the Earth.  Rev ch 8:6-12

• 1st trumpet    Hail and fire will burn a third of the forests, and all the grass
• 2nd trumpet    a mountain falls into the sea killing a third of the fish and destroying a third of the ships.
• 3rd trumpet    a "star" would fall upon a third of the fresh water supply will be foul
• 4th trumpet     a third of the sky will be darken from the fire and destruction which will burn of months
  

If planet X is true, then it is only thing in science that could do all these things to us.   

PBH

Not sure about the Einstein quote, he usually get attributed with weird stuff.

Still, for the bees, do a google search for 'colony collapse disorder'.  It isn't the 90% claimed above, but last year in the US 40% of bee keepers reported losses of 75% or more of their colonies.  Survey this came from: http://beealert.blackfoot.net/~beealert/UpdatedSurveyResultsJune19_2007.pdf

There are some who are unsure if the bees can rebound, given a recent large die off due to the longer then normal winter and this mysterious disappearance.

PS:
Planet X has been throughly disproved.  The Nemesis star theory could still be right.

I know that the bees are disappearing, I just have a hard time believing 90% of the world bee population is missing.

Nemesis (http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/nemesis_010320-1.html)

This link, I find interesting, because Dr Richard A. Muller comes across as open minded but he is also looking for real data and proof...  Still it is a big sky out there...

And I put the 90% as Media hipe...

PBH

Quote from: Zina on August 16, 2008, 11:43:45 AM
I know that the bees are disappearing, I just have a hard time believing 90% of the world bee population is missing.

No one is sure of actual numbers really.  There are a lot of numbers out there but no one has crunched them.  Not for the lack of trying, but because crunching these numbers is hard work.  The bees will probably actually be 90% gone or completely back before they finish.

Quote from: Prof B Hunnydew on August 16, 2008, 11:53:05 AM
Nemesis (http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/nemesis_010320-1.html)

This link, I find interesting, because Dr Richard A. Muller comes across as open minded but he is also looking for real data and proof...  Still it is a big sky out there...

And I put the 90% as Media hipe...

PBH

If you are interested Richard Muller's physics lectures are on iTunes for free download.

i recall it being between 1/3 and 1/2, although it may easily escalate to 2/3 from there i doubt it would go further

of course, the really puzzling thing is that the bee bodies are missing, if it were just heaps of dead bees outside the hives we would understand, but just vanishing? perhaps UFOs have learned all they can from anally probing humans and mutilating cows, and have moved on to stacking bees in large piles

Missing Bee bodies is not hard to understand... If the bee are going out into the world to collect pollen and somehow "gets lost" and never makes it back to the homehive....which some people think may be the case of cell phone transmissions interfering with their navigation.  Who knows?   Yes, the bees do use the sun as a navigational tool, but what spectrum do they use during flights or do them have a compasses in their heads. 

PBH. 

*Later, scientists seeking bee bodies find numerous messages in bee language*  So long and thanks for all the nectar.

*scientists on evening news* WE R TEH DOOMED!  D:

PS:  The two prophets are obviously symbols for the USA and Israel.  I mean, what other two nations would the rest of the world rejoice over if they were destroyed?   :P

Sorry wild bees are a major jogging hazard in Southern California, WHAT missing Bees?

Quote from: Zorro on August 19, 2008, 02:32:31 AM
Sorry wild bees are a major jogging hazard in Southern California, WHAT missing Bees?

Oh those are the african killer bee,  run  run ...

No seriously, it is tame honeybees, which are disappearing.  The beekeepers have a labor problem. 

Quote from: Alondro on August 18, 2008, 10:46:59 PM

PS:  The two prophets are obviously symbols for the USA and Israel.  I mean, what other two nations would the rest of the world rejoice over if they were destroyed?   :P

USA is hard to Fit into Bible prophecy, Many say She is the Mystery Babylon. 

Before the final Beast system rises and puts its mark on everyone (which is easily provable to happen at the start of the Great Tribulation, or 3½ years into the last 7 years), a nation called Babylon falls first.  This can only be the USA as Jeremiah 50, 51 and Isaiah 47, 48 and Rev 17, 18 point to as the only candidate that fits all the Scripture on Mystery Babylon. Now Revelation 17 and 18 specifically then must be dual, they speak of America and the entire later Mother Babylonian sytem. the ruling system of Babylon which has been used since Nimrob. This is why Rev 18 and 14 say "Babylon has fallen (1), has fallen (2)".  It's dual, and not limited to one fulfillment.  American, called technically a daughter of Babylon by Jeremiah and Isaiah, can only fall once.  Then the full and final embodiment of  Babylon, The Beast, will fall 3½ years later when Messiah vaporizes its armies.

The fact that most American homes have a copy of the Bible carries a responsibility.  We are the most religious and belief in God then any nation.  .  Russia, China and every other communist or Islamic nations keep out the Bible and persecute all Christians that try to proselytize.  Americans alone have the full scriptures and the free time and prosperity to study them and yet we do not, and instead we do heinous things and teach other nations to do the same. And then yell at other nations when they do the same as we do.

PBH

Quote from: Alondro on August 18, 2008, 10:46:59 PM
*Later, scientists seeking bee bodies find numerous messages in bee language*  So long and thanks for all the nectar.

*scientists on evening news* WE R TEH DOOMED!  D:

PS:  The two prophets are obviously symbols for the USA and Israel.  I mean, what other two nations would the rest of the world rejoice over if they were destroyed?   :P

North Korea, Iran, and all other countries with unstable leaders that may have nukes?

Quote from: Prof B Hunnydew on August 19, 2008, 07:04:59 AM
USA is hard to Fit into Bible prophecy, Many say She is the Mystery Babylon. 

Before the final Beast system rises and puts its mark on everyone (which is easily provable to happen at the start of the Great Tribulation, or 3½ years into the last 7 years), a nation called Babylon falls first.  This can only be the USA as Jeremiah 50, 51 and Isaiah 47, 48 and Rev 17, 18 point to as the only candidate that fits all the Scripture on Mystery Babylon. Now Revelation 17 and 18 specifically then must be dual, they speak of America and the entire later Mother Babylonian sytem.  This is why Rev 18 and 14 say "Babylon has fallen (1), has fallen (2)".  It's dual, and not limited to one fulfillment.  American, called technically a daughter of Babylon by Jeremiah and Isaiah, can only fall once.  Then the full and final embodiment of  Babylon, The Beast, will fall 3½ years later when Messiah vaporizes its armies.

Yeah, biblical prophecy is nuts like that. It's also extremely open to interpretation, and that makes it kinda worthless. You never know if your interpretation of such a text is in any way, shape, or form correct.

Quote from: Prof B Hunnydew on August 19, 2008, 07:04:59 AM
<snip>
Americans alone have the full scriptures and the free time and prosperity to study them
<snip>

Please tell me you're not being serious here? No Christian denomination of any kind has ever had "the full scriptures". The King James version of the bible is not everything.
Watch this video:
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-7560334588471801986

In the third or fourth century there was a rather vast cornucopia of Christian religious texts, often conflicting with each other. The church leaders decided to choose form those books which where the most consistent with each other, and where the least nuts. The result is the bible as it is today, more or less. Other edits were made after this.

Also, right now Europe is doing better than America in terms of economy and free time, and there's plenty of bibles lying around here. There's just less people here who think the world is going to end, or that revelations should be taken seriously.

Oh boy, what have I started again,

Okay the Bible has had parts have been added or mistranslated or left out, but the main message is there.  Yesheu is Messiah, we should keep the "holy days" and this world will end with these events.

How? When?

Well, I am still studying that...  But USA can not be a world power when the Beast comes into his power.  Many believe, the Beast must come from Europe, or UE.  China will be a superpower for the final battle.

PBH

PS My next post I will try and put up a timeline of events (as I see them) from Prophecy and current events.  what is most likely, but I will not put firm dates. 

Quote from: Prof B Hunnydew on August 19, 2008, 07:47:04 AM
Oh boy, what have I started again,

Conjecture about the end of the world according to your religion?

Quote from: Prof B Hunnydew on August 19, 2008, 07:47:04 AM
Okay the Bible has had parts have been added or mistranslated or left out, but the main message is there. 

In this case, over seventy gospels, acts, letters and apocalypses. (Yes, apocalypses. As in "more than 1 end of the world.)
Seriously, watch the video in my previous post. It's important.

On a slightly different note, biblical scholars have come to a consensus about the antichrist: it's the roman emperor Nero. He's dead, Jesus isn't here, and we still are.

Well, I wouldn't say 'biblical scholars' as a lump sum.  That's one particular faction.  There are quite a number of dissenters to that theory.

Consensus doesn't mean anything to a real scientist!  After all, it was consensus that decided the Sun revolved around the Earth long ago.  And it was consensus that no plane could fly faster than the speed of sound.

A real scientist doesn't buy into consensus when there are other valid possibilities also supported by the same facts.  I offer again the fact that with the current CO2-based global warming, Mars and Jupiter's and the rest of the planets' (http://www.dailytech.com/Global+Warming+on+Mars++and+Jupiter+Pluto+Neptune/article6544.htm) temperatures are increasing at the same time as Earth's.  I'm quite certain our pollution has nothing to do with that, and neither did our pollution trigger the numerous cooling and heating periods of the planet which at one point only a few million years ago left the Arctic ocean a Subtropical Sea (http://www.livescience.com/environment/060531_arctic_climate.html) though again in the article the researchers side with consensus and decide that the current warming must be human-related, because Al Gore says so.   :P  But, the belief is politically expedient to the socialists and environmentalists, therefore inconvenient facts are ignored. 

Quote from: Vidar on August 19, 2008, 07:57:24 AM
Stuff

another vote in favor of my "humans kicked the apocalypse's ass" theory

Quote from: Brunhidden on August 20, 2008, 10:59:46 AM

Quote from: Vidar on August 19, 2008, 07:57:24 AM
Stuff

another vote in favor of my "humans kicked the apocalypse's ass" theory

If by "kicked"  you mean "barely survived" then I suppose so.  When Rome fell, times were bad indeed.

Quote from: Valynth on August 20, 2008, 11:52:54 AM

Quote from: Brunhidden on August 20, 2008, 10:59:46 AM

Quote from: Vidar on August 19, 2008, 07:57:24 AM
Stuff

another vote in favor of my "humans kicked the apocalypse's ass" theory

If by "kicked"  you mean "barely survived" then I suppose so.  When Rome fell, times were bad indeed.

But not so bad that humans were on the brink of extiction. No apocalypse ensued so far. We wouldn't be here if it did.

Quote from: Alondro on August 20, 2008, 09:49:40 AM
Well, I wouldn't say 'biblical scholars' as a lump sum.  That's one particular faction.  There are quite a number of dissenters to that theory.

Consensus doesn't mean anything to a real scientist!  After all, it was consensus that decided the Sun revolved around the Earth long ago.  And it was consensus that no plane could fly faster than the speed of sound.

A real scientist doesn't buy into consensus when there are other valid possibilities also supported by the same facts. 

Ah, yes. It seems that I made an argument from authority. Your objections regarding my statement about Nero being the antichrist are correct.

Quote from: Alondro on August 20, 2008, 09:49:40 AM
I offer again the fact that with the current CO2-based global warming, Mars and Jupiter's and the rest of the planets' (http://www.dailytech.com/Global+Warming+on+Mars++and+Jupiter+Pluto+Neptune/article6544.htm) temperatures are increasing at the same time as Earth's.  I'm quite certain our pollution has nothing to do with that, and neither did our pollution trigger the numerous cooling and heating periods of the planet which at one point only a few million years ago left the Arctic ocean a Subtropical Sea (http://www.livescience.com/environment/060531_arctic_climate.html) though again in the article the researchers side with consensus and decide that the current warming must be human-related, because Al Gore says so.   :P  But, the belief is politically expedient to the socialists and environmentalists, therefore inconvenient facts are ignored. 

Global warming is an entirely different discussion. You might want to open up a different thread about this subject, as it is quite important that this is adressed by mankind because it will cause a lot of problems in the future.

For an exhaustive viewpoint on this subject go here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oCYW4ScUnw
It's long, but reccomended viewing for everyone interested, or opposed to the subject.

let us all pray that this guy never leaves us....or  the universe will have unleash its wraith against us..

my new church (http://www.thugdome.com/slagblah.html)

Serious, I am trying to find the next most likely event, and there is no consensus about wether another six-day war is on the horizon or not...  Iran may have a nuke, or they will try to overload the anti-SUD system of Israel with their missiles, while the world is turned to the Georgia/Russia conflict.  Syria and Iran were puppets of the old Soviets. 

If we push the Russia about Georgia, the Ukraine, and missile shield in Poland.  What will the Russians do to push us?  Cut the supple of oil and gas to Europe?  Invade Romania, Balkins and/or Turkey?  Back the Arabs when they invade Israel behind the scene?  And then the Russians come in as peacekeepers? 

PBH

I did find one thing... They all predict that the Arctic sea will be ice-free by the summer 2012...well almost.  await that is AL Gore.... the next VP

Wading through all wild theories and nonsense, to find a true prophecy.

Quote from: Vidar on August 20, 2008, 12:32:37 PM

Quote from: Valynth on August 20, 2008, 11:52:54 AM

Quote from: Brunhidden on August 20, 2008, 10:59:46 AM
another vote in favor of my "humans kicked the apocalypse's ass" theory

If by "kicked"  you mean "barely survived" then I suppose so.  When Rome fell, times were bad indeed.

But not so bad that humans were on the brink of extinction. No apocalypse ensued so far. We wouldn't be here if it did.

It really was less about ALL humanity and more about those who considered themselves Roman (they considered themselves the only "developed" humans on the planet at the time.)  In that sense, the prophecies were right, the Roman people simply ceased to be.  Albeit not in the fantastical way depicted in the bible prophecies.

true, rome did think itself the only 'people' in the world.

in much the same way biblical times thought that if they were flooded the whole dang world was flooded, and ancient china thought that other people came from some other world cause they're the only people in the world as well.


the fall of rome was a complex affair, but the bit that started it all on fire was that one year the Visigoths to the north, my ancestors, who had been longtime rivals, occasional enemies, and infrequent allies had a very bad harvest. so they asked rome to help them not starve. rome agreed, and then a scant few months later reneged the deal, making the goths very pissed off.

thus the goths had tha gall to sack rome, and as ransom demanded their own kingdom. after this rome was considered a pussy and everyone kinda ganged in, after seeing its power had fallen everything fell.


so, the goths were quite happy at the time of the fall of rome. the franks they met to the northwest were also happy as they proceeded to kick everyones butt with a new throwing axe, the chinese had not yet gotten to imperial stage but were prosperous and would have asked 'whats a rome?'. and, oh yeah, the ottomans, whose empire would later replace rome as the big baddie that tries to conquer europe, only to be stopped by the order of the dracul.

this is not to mention the not exactly thriving other peoples, including the many native americans, the oblivious innuit, the norsemen who had not yet exausted their meager farmland which would later cause them to pop their heads down south, many african tribes who had not heard much of egypt in quite a while, and egypt itself was probably the only people who were as bad off as rome.


the romans were quite self centered, and to be franc they were dicks too, kinda glad great great great ecetera grandpa found it fun to pillage and rape the rank ruin that was one mighty rome

Roma also killed lots of lions and tigers.   :<

The bastards got what they deserved! 

Quote from: Alondro on August 25, 2008, 11:12:25 AM
Roma also killed lots of lions and tigers.   :<

The bastards got what they deserved! 

only because you were delicious and entertaining

Quote from: Brunhidden on August 25, 2008, 11:14:20 AM

Quote from: Alondro on August 25, 2008, 11:12:25 AM
Roma also killed lots of lions and tigers.   :<

The bastards got what they deserved! 

only because you were delicious and entertaining

*grrrs*  Ok, you are now on the enemy list!   >:[

its a compliment, don't make me lick your face and fail at trying to be cute at you

Quote from: Brunhidden on August 25, 2008, 11:05:14 AM
true, rome did think itself the only 'people' in the world.

in much the same way biblical times thought that if they were flooded the whole dang world was flooded, and ancient china thought that other people came from some other world cause they're the only people in the world as well.

That reminds me a bit of the intro of the book "the carpet people". Every tribe has a name that translates to "the true human beings", and whenever another tribe was found they would be called "some other human beings" or, if it was a bad day, "the enemy".

I reccomend the book, since it was written by my favourite author, Terry Pratchett.

... He goes on to say, that the world would probably be a much better place if they'd come up with "some more true human beings" instead...

But that's probably another thread entirely. ;-]

theres many cultures that have one word for 'outsider' which is also the word for 'slave'.

ive never come across that particular piece of pratchett, although ive read strata, which is his homage to my other favorite author



really the best way to say it is to call everyone brother, but then you may as well shave your head and bang drums in airports shouting 'hari krishna'

I've always preferred friend, neighbor or bro/brah.

I'm going to have to check out those Pratchett books now.  They sound quite interesting.

Quote from: Mowser on August 26, 2008, 10:33:44 AM
I've always preferred friend, neighbor or bro/brah.

I'm going to have to check out those Pratchett books now.  They sound quite interesting.

And find Good Omens: he wrote it with Neil Gaiman. Really, it pretty much makes fun of every single aspect of the apocalypse. I cant' recommend it enough... actually I can't recommend Pratchet himself enough. Not many people can turn Death into a sympathetic character, but Pratchet pulled it off.

good omens rules, however the bulk of pratchett is the diskworld books

they are not in any real order, but some are a lot better places to start

Quote from: Brunhidden on August 26, 2008, 10:57:17 AM
good omens rules, however the bulk of pratchett is the diskworld books

they are not in any real order, but some are a lot better places to start

Well, they are more or less in chronological order of when they were published, but really once you've read The Colour of Magic and The Light Fantastic, you can do any order you want. Witches Abroad and Hogfather are also really good to get into the spirit of the Discworld: they're also my two favorites. Guards! Guards! also introduces Vimes and Carrot, and gives you a good idea of what kind of a man Vetinari is... on second thought, you can't fail with any of the Discworld books. But read the first two first, and then have fun: they introduce most of the big concepts and a handful of the major characters that the later books rely on.

But, slightly on topic, considering that Good Omens is basically kickstarted because an Angel and a Demon who are good friends don't want the world to end, it really is a fun read. It also has an angel telling off a televangelist for thinking that God would condemn someone to hell simply for believing something a little different that what that person believes. And a burning car held together by sheer willpower - literally. And the Four Bikers of the Apocalypse. It's a fun read through and through.

Quote from: Jairus on August 26, 2008, 11:03:21 AM
... Witches Abroad and Hogfather are also really good to get into the spirit of the Discworld: they're also my two favorites.

I personally would suggest reading Soul Music before Hogfather, as it provides a better introduction of Susan and the Death of Rats. And Quoth, the raven.

QuoteBut, slightly on topic, considering that Good Omens is basically kickstarted because an Angel and a Demon who are good friends don't want the world to end, it really is a fun read. It also has an angel telling off a televangelist for thinking that God would condemn someone to hell simply for believing something a little different that what that person believes. And a burning car held together by sheer willpower - literally. And the Four Bikers of the Apocalypse. It's a fun read through and through.

Agreed. Pestilence retiring and being succeeded by Pollution is a nice touch, as well.

Quote from: Jairus on August 26, 2008, 11:03:21 AM

Quote from: Brunhidden on August 26, 2008, 10:57:17 AM
good omens rules, however the bulk of pratchett is the diskworld books

they are not in any real order, but some are a lot better places to start

Well, they are more or less in chronological order of when they were published, but really once you've read The Colour of Magic and The Light Fantastic, you can do any order you want. Witches Abroad and Hogfather are also really good to get into the spirit of the Discworld: they're also my two favorites. Guards! Guards! also introduces Vimes and Carrot, and gives you a good idea of what kind of a man Vetinari is... on second thought, you can't fail with any of the Discworld books. But read the first two first, and then have fun: they introduce most of the big concepts and a handful of the major characters that the later books rely on.

But, slightly on topic, considering that Good Omens is basically kickstarted because an Angel and a Demon who are good friends don't want the world to end, it really is a fun read. It also has an angel telling off a televangelist for thinking that God would condemn someone to hell simply for believing something a little different that what that person believes. And a burning car held together by sheer willpower - literally. And the Four Bikers of the Apocalypse. It's a fun read through and through.

HUSH! You might want to put a spoiler warning at the top of your post. I've read the book already (twice, in fact) so I don't care, but others might.
<ZOMG SPOILERS>
There is more to the book than what Jairus just mentioned, such as the four other bikers of the apocalypse, a professional descendant, a witchhunter and his apprentice, and the antichrist, of course.
</ZOMG SPOILERS>

About the reading order of the discworld novels, this graph might be helpful:
(http://www.lspace.org/books/reading-order-guides/the-discworld-reading-order-guide-1-5.jpg)


A little bit more on topic.
If WW3 ever starts, it will not last long. It won't last a year, or even a month, or even a week. A long afternoon is all that's needed for a full-scale nuclear exchange to reduce our civilisation to rubble.

Quote from: Vidar on August 26, 2008, 12:32:11 PM
HUSH! You might want to put a spoiler warning at the top of your post. I've read the book already (twice, in fact) so I don't care, but others might.
<ZOMG SPOILERS>
There is more to the book than what Jairus just mentioned, such as the four other bikers of the apocalypse, a professional descendant, a witchhunter and his apprentice, and the antichrist, of course.
</ZOMG SPOILERS>

About the reading order of the discworld novels, this graph might be helpful:
*picture removed to save space...  :yeahthat*

Oh, sorry about that. Of course, you revealed MORE than me...

As for that reading list, that is a great find. I'm going to save that. I was actually wondering what book I should buy next, and that should be helpful. Thanks!

Quote from: Vidar on August 26, 2008, 12:32:11 PM
A little bit more on topic.
If WW3 ever starts, it will not last long. It won't last a year, or even a month, or even a week. A long afternoon is all that's needed for a full-scale nuclear exchange to reduce our civilisation to rubble.

Yeah, good point. If we could somehow keep nuclear weapons from not being involved... but that's not very likely.

i recall one of einsteins top 10 most quoted statements was

QuoteI do not know with what weapons world war three will be fought with, but I do know world war four will be fought with sticks and stones

sticks and stone's eh?

now i know i have a reason to collect katana's!!

This, of course, assumes that there will be anyone left to fight it...

Quote from: LionHeart on August 28, 2008, 06:36:07 AM
This, of course, assumes that there will be anyone left to fight it...

there is whats called the rule of ten percent- in theory no matter what catastrophe befalls mankind (short of the total destruction of the planet) at least ten percent of the population will survive.

this includes just about any kind of plague, natural disaster, man made disaster, and most strikes by stellar objects.

it does not say what ten percent, it could be that the innuit and the aborigonies are all thats left, who knows.

however one thing is for sure, the infrastructure of people and countries and companies needed to make such wonderfully complex things as machine guns, helicopters, grenades, and the insane level of technology for uranium.... heh, even if the entire ten percent were in the industrial capitals of first world countries, we just wouldn't have the infrastructure to get it all done.