"I thought it was just a crack in the wall... I was wrong."
Amber- I think Darkmoon needs to upload that clip.
http://www.inverteddungeon.com/Sig/Way_Too_Early_Legal_4.mp3 (http://www.inverteddungeon.com/Sig/Way_Too_Early_Legal_4.mp3)
Yes, that is really Amber's voice in that Legal ID. It was totally ad-libbed.
Down in Fraggle rock....
I LOVE that ID. I think it's on my Ipod right now.
Fluffy's a she!
...until Amber comes on and says she just didn't think it sounded right calling Fluffy "it." BUt until then, Gleeeeee.
Sorry, yo. Last I heard, you picked the wrong gender to assign the Fluffernator.
Dear World,
Go Red.
Love, KK.
for some reason I was expecting a twelve days of Christmas countdown....
This comic is officially dubbed awesome for containing Red :boogie Although Wembly would have been ever better :eager
"Ahh, a bear in his natural habitat - a Studebaker."
Yes, wrong show/movie, I know, but the text under the comic reminded me of it.
Quote from: Amber, in the rant'o'update...that when a new device is created or something happens that a new word is created for it...that the word should be used globally.
This should totally the case. However, it's going to be hard for the majority to convert all of you to speaking in Chinese. :mowcookie
Here's to hoping that Amber has had her rabies shots.
Regarding the Rant: I completely understand the language gap, in Europe they call cell phones Handys, since I work in a airport I have to know several words to communicate to people about a object
"Leave the cart out side" Stupid look :erk
"Leave the trolley outside" Stupid look :erk
"Leave the thing which you are transporting your luggage on outside" Oh (and usually it's the North Americans that are the ones that don't get it) :rolleyes
two things in one day...
First Fluffy's Gender has been said by Amber and two Amber has made 2 Fluffy & amber comics in a row.
Quote from: LoneHowler on December 03, 2007, 06:52:47 AM
Regarding the Rant: I completely understand the language gap, in Europe they call cell phones Handys
God yes, I was so going to bring up that example, too. It makes so terribly little sense to import an English word to replace another English word in non-English-speaking countries.
Quote from: Sid on December 03, 2007, 08:04:31 AM
Quote from: LoneHowler on December 03, 2007, 06:52:47 AM
Regarding the Rant: I completely understand the language gap, in Europe they call cell phones Handys
God yes, I was so going to bring up that example, too. It makes so terribly little sense to import an English word to replace another English word in non-English-speaking countries.
To keep people from inventing words is to keep them from being creative and essentially banning the same creativity you've come to enjoy.
"but the word came first yada yada"
So? What legitimizes their claim to that word? Another person has every right to make up a word to describe an object as you or anyone else on this planet. If they didn't, language and writing would not exist, so who would be striking in the movie industry?
Quote from: Valynth on December 03, 2007, 08:32:48 AM
Quote from: Sid on December 03, 2007, 08:04:31 AM
Quote from: LoneHowler on December 03, 2007, 06:52:47 AM
Regarding the Rant: I completely understand the language gap, in Europe they call cell phones Handys
God yes, I was so going to bring up that example, too. It makes so terribly little sense to import an English word to replace another English word in non-English-speaking countries.
To keep people from inventing words is to keep them from being creative and essentially banning the same creativity you've come to enjoy.
"but the word came first yada yada"
So? What legitimizes their claim to that word? Another person has every right to make up a word to describe an object as you or anyone else on this planet. If they didn't, language and writing would not exist, so who would be striking in the movie industry?
...wha? O___o;;;;;;
Erm, since you're replying to my post, please note that I'm not taking away anybody's right to be creative. I haven't said ANYTHING about keeping people from inventing words. I just noted how silly it for Germans to take an object, get rid of the English word for it and replace it with another existing English word.
That's like English-speaking countries renaming the "kindergarten" to "reiniger" - sure, nobody's stopping them from doing it, and some might call that creative, but it's silly and only leads to confusion once different people meet and assume that since it's a foreign word, the country of the word's origin uses it, too.
I've met multiple Germans who assumed that, since "Handy" is an English word, the people over in the US also call it "Handy".
Seriously, careful with the accusations of banning creativity and (thus in a way) censorship, please.
*hums the fraggle rock song*
That song is going to be popping into my head all day now!
Quote from: LoneHowler on December 03, 2007, 06:52:47 AM
Regarding the Rant: I completely understand the language gap, in Europe they call cell phones Handys, since I work in a airport I have to know several words to communicate to people about a object
"Leave the cart out side" Stupid look :erk
"Leave the trolley outside" Stupid look :erk
"Leave the thing which you are transporting your luggage on outside" Oh (and usually it's the North Americans that are the ones that don't get it) :rolleyes
It's a baggage cart, or hand-truck :U
Quote from: LoneHowler on December 03, 2007, 06:52:47 AM
Regarding the Rant: I completely understand the language gap, in Europe they call cell phones Handys, since I work in a airport I have to know several words to communicate to people about a object
What?!?
In Ireland and England they're called Mobiles.
In France, they're called portables.
Amber, while I respect you're whole "wouldn't it be great to understand eachother" I have to say to some extent I disagree with you. Each culture and language has its own way of going about things, it's own way of phrasing things or putting things. It's part of what gives a language it's identity, its own intangible uniqueness. If a word doesn't "work" in another language, why try to force it? The word in the first place may have connotations to the culture it was first conceived in in the first place, so forcing it into another culture may seem like cultural assimilation.
In any event, most of what you describe happens to some extent anyway. In the Irish language, there's "aerophort" (airport) and "van" for van, even though up to the creation of that word, there was no real "v" in the Irish language("bh" was used instead) which pretty much brings me back to my point above of things not "working" properly in other languages and adding incongruous elements as a result.
Don't get me started on Welsh, which, particularly in the north, is full of English words that have been tweaked to try and make them 'look more Welsh'.
The way I see it, its only cultural assimilation if people are trying to go back and reinvent words that already exist.
It's like the science community. Someone discovers some wacky-ass bird or new element, they get to name it. And then the rest of the science community will go "ok. Thats what we're going to call it." cause the person got dibs. Sure odds are it's going to be some godawful latin word or something with the phrase "onium" on it, but it's been more or less agreed that for science purposes, it should have a base name.
The only reason I can assume people would want to change a word that has just came out to something else entirely is because of pride. Pride in their country, pride in their culture, pride in their language...but to a point that they are removing simple practicality and usefulness for the sake of it. And Amber's haet when people put their pride before function.
I realize and accept a give in cases where the word is so incompatable, but in my experience those seem like exceptions rather than the rule.
I pose these simple questions, which will destroy your entire argument.
Which language are we to use?
Who decides what language we are to use?
What will the punishment be for those who refuse to speak the language?
Ideals like this are all alike, they can only be implemented when freedom is destroyed.
Quote from: Valynth on December 03, 2007, 10:39:55 AM
I pose these simple questions, which will destroy your entire argument.
Which language are we to use?
None. I'm not saying change an entire language, I'm saying single individual words. If someone invents a Thimcree, it gets world renown and everyone uses them, I don't see why someone has to create a whole new word to rename it.
QuoteWho decides what language we are to use?
I'd assume the person who invented the word. If Nintendo creates the Wii, and everyone calls it the Wii, then Nintendo decided to name to be used.
QuoteWhat will the punishment be for those who refuse to speak the language?
What is it that people assume that I'm trying to suggest total global conversion of langauges? I'm not saying people should convert to a single language and give up their previous culture and languages, I'm just saying when new stuff comes along that it is silly to create multiple words in different languages. If the world has global communications and the ability to speak to people in other countries in the matter of seconds, there is no reason for new names to be made for something that just hits the scene.
Already existing words don't factor into this because that's a given. But for new things that have no actual name in any language, I don't see why the name that comes first by the person/people that create it can't be used globally.
QuoteIdeals like this are all alike, they can only be implemented when freedom is destroyed.
That or when people don't actually read what I'm saying and just launch into philosophical mumblings.
Seriously. I'm
NOT endorsing a global language. I realize that is silly. I'm saying that in this day and age, it makes little sense to me why something all-together new and has no name ANYWHERE before, can't have the same name once it hits public. I don't see why when something completely new comes onto the scene, there is a necessity to create yet another new word to describe the exact same thing.
Quote from: Sofox on December 03, 2007, 10:03:46 AM
What?!?
In Ireland and England they're called Mobiles.
In France, they're called portables.
In NZ they're usually called "cell phones". Australia, I'm not sure, but I can go ask someone...
OTOH, most Kiwis are sufficiently cosmopolitan to pick up on variations in the name fairly rapidly.
Quote from: llearch n'n'daCorna on December 03, 2007, 11:15:12 AM
Quote from: Sofox on December 03, 2007, 10:03:46 AM
What?!?
In Ireland and England they're called Mobiles.
In France, they're called portables.
In NZ they're usually called "cell phones". Australia, I'm not sure, but I can go ask someone...
OTOH, most Kiwis are sufficiently cosmopolitan to pick up on variations in the name fairly rapidly.
We call them "mobiles" in Australia.
People in Scotland just call them phones. Mobile is also acceptable, but you get weird looks when you use Cell.
And what right do you have to say they can't name it what ever the heck they want? Frankly, they can name a Wii "Bob" for all anyone cares, just so long as Nintendo can still sell it and if the name catches on, people will start using that.
So Amber, what right do you have to stop people from choosing what to name their stuff?
Quote from: Valynth on December 03, 2007, 11:40:45 AM
So Amber, what right do you have to stop people from choosing what to name their stuff?
Did she say that?
No, she did not.
She said "why not use the same name worldwide?" which is -after- it gets named.
... unless you meant each person who has $item gets to name it however they like, which is a recipe for confusion.
Quote from: llearch n'n'daCorna on December 03, 2007, 11:47:49 AM
Quote from: Valynth on December 03, 2007, 11:40:45 AM
So Amber, what right do you have to stop people from choosing what to name their stuff?
Did she say that?
No, she did not.
She said "why not use the same name worldwide?" which is -after- it gets named.
... unless you meant each person who has $item gets to name it however they like, which is a recipe for confusion.
Indeed I'm saying just that, and the people around the person who gave the device a new name will start using that. Pretty soon a "nick" name develops and then it's only a couple people short from being a whole new name. That's how synonyms developed, which are essentially the core of Amber's rant about name unification. She wants to halt new synonyms from being born!
I think this discussion need to relax some. People are becoming to incensed over this, and I'd rather not see it become a flame war... which, from the attacks being hurled around, it practically is.
Relax, or else Dunecat will get you.
:dunecat
You ruin everything Darkmoon.
The.. the antics! They're so zany! :D
I love the comic response to the question ^_^ made me giggle on an otherwise stressful day!
When you refer to the changing of names due to pride and such Amber, are you talking about situations like the US declaring French Fries were to be called Freedom Fries just because they were mad at France?
Love the way you drew the doll in the last panel. I wis hI could remember the name of that character, but I haven't seen that show in so very long.
Quote from: Netrogo on December 03, 2007, 01:27:11 PM
When you refer to the changing of names due to pride and such Amber, are you talking about situations like the US declaring French Fries were to be called Freedom Fries just because they were mad at France?
Pretty much.
I fully accept and even at times embrace the slow evolution of slang and cultural words. It's a given. Much like how New York will know a lot more yiddish-slang like Schlep, where as the majority of people in Texas will have no understanding. That's a natural step I fully think is cool.
What I'm mostly getting at is when there is an obvious and gaudy reason that a word is trying to be pushed. Like freedom fries, or as Tapewolf mentioned, people changing words for no reason other than to make it a word in their own language. (Exception obviously in cases where the word is simply too difficult to pronounce and needs to be altered to be spoken)
For me, it's a matter of respect. To me, people deliberately trying to force a new word or change one for vanity reasons is incredibly disrespectful. It'd be like me going through the forum and changing people's usernames to match a particular theme. Sure I can do it, but it'd be disrespectful and would go against your original choice of name...and it'd be rude.
Quote from: Goatmon on December 03, 2007, 02:06:39 PM
Love the way you drew the doll in the last panel. I wis hI could remember the name of that character, but I haven't seen that show in so very long.
Thanks. It'd be Red, who I had to do a quick reference check to make sure I drew right. I actually did own a doll of her way back when...but these days those dolls are mega-expensive. So I doubt I'll ever get a new one. :B
I'm curious as to what specific example triggered this rant?
Quote from: Sid on December 03, 2007, 08:04:31 AM
Quote from: LoneHowler on December 03, 2007, 06:52:47 AM
Regarding the Rant: I completely understand the language gap, in Europe they call cell phones Handys
God yes, I was so going to bring up that example, too. It makes so terribly little sense to import an English word to replace another English word in non-English-speaking countries.
Bad example. First,
telephone is not an English word to begin with. It's made by combining the Greek words
tele and
phone, and this combination word is a French invention. Second, no one in Europe other than native English-speakers would dream of saying "phone" instead of "telephone" (or the appropriate spelling thereof), and if you put "cell" into a non-English sentence, it simply looks like a spelling mistake. So it makes perfect sense to use another term than "cell phone", as this term makes absolutely no sense in German, French or Spanish.
Handy,
mobile or
portable are, OTOH, very good descriptions of the object.
EDIT: on topic: Today's comic made me laugh, even though I've never seen Fraggle Rock. How odd.
Quote from: Amber Williams on December 03, 2007, 02:16:19 PM
Thanks. It'd be Red, who I had to do a quick reference check to make sure I drew right. I actually did own a doll of her way back when...but these days those dolls are mega-expensive. So I doubt I'll ever get a new one. :B
They actually made new ones recently. I know Hot Topic and Target sold em, at least. They aren't made too shabby, either. Red's been holding up from being tossed around and shuffled about really well.
Also, I bet more will come out when the Fraggle movie shows up.
what exactaly did amber hit fluffy with
it looks like a box of tissues or something
Quote from: zopey on December 03, 2007, 03:49:48 PM
what exactaly did amber hit fluffy with
it looks like a box of tissues or something
Looks more like a box of some sort... or a shampoo bottle... or would look like a shampoo bottle if it had a top.
or some siort of pink brick or a pink nintendo. what is it?
I gotta watch Fraggle Rock again... I loved it, but I don't remember a lot of it. Awesome comic.
Quote from: Kenji on December 03, 2007, 03:02:57 PM
Quote from: Amber Williams on December 03, 2007, 02:16:19 PM
Thanks. It'd be Red, who I had to do a quick reference check to make sure I drew right. I actually did own a doll of her way back when...but these days those dolls are mega-expensive. So I doubt I'll ever get a new one. :B
They actually made new ones recently. I know Hot Topic and Target sold em, at least. They aren't made too shabby, either. Red's been holding up from being tossed around and shuffled about really well.
Also, I bet more will come out when the Fraggle movie shows up.
Whu... a movie?
movies of shows past. it's happening all over again. after all Alvin and the chipmunks opens and less then 2 weeks.
eh... what??
Quote from: Paul on December 03, 2007, 02:50:24 PM
Quote from: Sid on December 03, 2007, 08:04:31 AM
Quote from: LoneHowler on December 03, 2007, 06:52:47 AM
Regarding the Rant: I completely understand the language gap, in Europe they call cell phones Handys
God yes, I was so going to bring up that example, too. It makes so terribly little sense to import an English word to replace another English word in non-English-speaking countries.
Bad example. First, telephone is not an English word to begin with. It's made by combining the Greek words tele and phone, and this combination word is a French invention. Second, no one in Europe other than native English-speakers would dream of saying "phone" instead of "telephone" (or the appropriate spelling thereof), and if you put "cell" into a non-English sentence, it simply looks like a spelling mistake. So it makes perfect sense to use another term than "cell phone", as this term makes absolutely no sense in German, French or Spanish. Handy, mobile or portable are, OTOH, very good descriptions of the object.
Germany has a perfectly fine word for cell phones: "Mobiltelefon" (mobile phone). We just too silly to actually use it, so we "came up" with "Handy", which is just another English word (and
also looks like a spelling mistake because it didn't exist like that in German and is just one letter away from our word for "hand": "Hand"), so... *shrugs helplessly*
Quote from: Paul on December 03, 2007, 02:50:24 PM
I'm curious as to what specific example triggered this rant?
Quote from: Sid on December 03, 2007, 08:04:31 AM
Quote from: LoneHowler on December 03, 2007, 06:52:47 AM
Regarding the Rant: I completely understand the language gap, in Europe they call cell phones Handys
God yes, I was so going to bring up that example, too. It makes so terribly little sense to import an English word to replace another English word in non-English-speaking countries.
Bad example. First, telephone is not an English word to begin with. It's made by combining the Greek words tele and phone, and this combination word is a French invention. Second, no one in Europe other than native English-speakers would dream of saying "phone" instead of "telephone" (or the appropriate spelling thereof), and if you put "cell" into a non-English sentence, it simply looks like a spelling mistake. So it makes perfect sense to use another term than "cell phone", as this term makes absolutely no sense in German, French or Spanish. Handy, mobile or portable are, OTOH, very good descriptions of the object.
EDIT: on topic: Today's comic made me laugh, even though I've never seen Fraggle Rock. How odd.
oh so that explains it thank you, as to where the discussion originated was Amber's rant which is below the comic. I could have brought up what the British call a cigarette, it's so funny to see a persons face when they hear a Britain saying they are going out for a fag(smoke)
In England, you can bum a fag in public and not get arrested.
Language is fascinating. Also, everyone's an expert and knows everything about language that there is to know. Because like, they like, like, speak it. Like.
No see what Amber is saying is that everyone should learn English and only use English names, because it's the master language. I object to this because it is morally WRONG and blah blah blah blah
Also, she eats babies.
Quote from: rabid_fox on December 03, 2007, 05:08:05 PM
In England, you can bum a fag in public and not get arrested.
Reminds me of a story British actress Julie Andrews told about her early career in the U.S. She was at a rehersal when the producer and one of his staff came by to ask her about something. As she walked up to them, she remembered that she needed some cigarettes, and she around turned to another cast member and said in a loud whisper, "Fags! Fags!" . She had no idea why they were offended.
QuoteLanguage is fascinating. Also, everyone's an expert and knows everything about language that there is to know. Because like, they like, like, speak it. Like.
Well speaking as a writer and historian, which
kind of makes me an expert, I do think it's facinating. The other thing I'd point out to Amber and everyone, is that, contrary to what you might think it's usually the newest stuff that gets called by all the different names. Even in countries which speak the same langauge, like the U.K. and the U.S. if some gadget was around 300 years ago, we use the same word (mostly), but look at things like railroads and cars and electronics:
U.K = U.S.
driver = engineer
piston box = cylinders
guards van = caboose
points = switch
boot = trunk
bonnet = hood
gear box - transmission
windscreen = windshield
I've worked with British engineers. Electronic parts are always "bits", (electronic) vacuum tubes are "valves", and my favorite - the technical help line is the "queries department". They discoverd that asking for "queries" frequently makes people hang up on them.
But English is very welcoming of other languages. It's so mongrelized it's hard to learn for non-speakers. It borrows from all over the place. Japanese is a close second. They use European language terms just becuse they like the way they sound, and even if they don't understand them. The real language chauvanists - to use a French term - are the French.
The French created a whole bureaucracy (another French term) called Commission générale de terminologie et de néologie, to keep other languages, especially English, out. The Japanese came up with the tiny portable music player and gave it an English name "Walkman". Everybody called it that. Not the French. It had to be called "le baladeur" or it was illegal to sell it. Same for IPods - "le baladeur" again. Can't say "podcast" either. It has to be "Baladodiffusion". Software?, no it's "logiciel." Everyone in the world knows whae email is, but in France it's "courriel" (from "courrier", mail, and "électronique", electronic).
I've also heard that if you say "I fell on my fanny" in England, it's much much funnier than you'd think.
I kind of agree with Amber. I mean, it's pretty sad that the only universally understood word in the world is "Coca-Cola."
"MY WORD IS BETTER THAN YOURS"
Quote from: Goatmon on December 03, 2007, 04:35:49 PM
Quote from: Kenji on December 03, 2007, 03:02:57 PM
Quote from: Amber Williams on December 03, 2007, 02:16:19 PM
Thanks. It'd be Red, who I had to do a quick reference check to make sure I drew right. I actually did own a doll of her way back when...but these days those dolls are mega-expensive. So I doubt I'll ever get a new one. :B
They actually made new ones recently. I know Hot Topic and Target sold em, at least. They aren't made too shabby, either. Red's been holding up from being tossed around and shuffled about really well.
Also, I bet more will come out when the Fraggle movie shows up.
Whu... a movie?
Fraggles in Outer Space
...
...
Just remember, "outer space" to Fraggles is just the surface world.
right...
Quote from: BillBuckner on December 03, 2007, 05:30:47 PM
"MY WORD IS BETTER THAN YOURS"
No it's not. :<
*insert colourful Australian swear words here*
Quote from: Black_angel on December 03, 2007, 05:25:02 PM
I've also heard that if you say "I fell on my fanny" in England, it's much much funnier than you'd think.
I kind of agree with Amber. I mean, it's pretty sad that the only universally understood word in the world is "Coca-Cola."
Actually, in Mandarin Chinese, which about one fourth of the world speaks, the name Coca-Cola had to be changed a bit (happened in 1928), because Coca-Cola itself means "bite the wax tadpole" or "a mare flattened with wax".
*Charline LOVES Dunecat!* Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!! I want one! *stuffs a cat into a tube... stuff stuff stuff SQUISH.. * I broke my Dunecat. :<
*Charles knows that the Master Language will be his own!* Soon the world will speak only Piney! :mwaha
Quote from: Kuari on December 03, 2007, 03:58:21 PM
Quote from: zopey on December 03, 2007, 03:49:48 PM
what exactaly did amber hit fluffy with
it looks like a box of tissues or something
Looks more like a box of some sort... or a shampoo bottle... or would look like a shampoo bottle if it had a top.
I thought that it was a chalk board eraser. I know teachers who felt that they were useful for getting the attention of inattentive students.
I also know where there were a group of cubicles for grad students. The lights would go off at night if they didn't detect motion for a certain amount of time. So some of the students would stockpile erasers and throw them at the motion sensor when the light went out.
Quote from: zopey on December 03, 2007, 03:49:48 PMwhat exactaly did amber hit fluffy with
it looks like a box of tissues or something
I thought it was a gaming console...
Quote from: Sid on December 03, 2007, 04:56:48 PMGermany has a perfectly fine word for cell phones: "Mobiltelefon" (mobile phone). We just too silly to actually use it, so we "came up" with "Handy", which is just another English word (and also looks like a spelling mistake because it didn't exist like that in German and is just one letter away from our word for "hand": "Hand"), so... *shrugs helplessly*
Yeah, that is a little silly. But plenty of languages work like that - nick a word from another language, even though you have your own word already, simply because the foreign word sounds clever or whatever. In a generation or so, everyone will have forgotten that "Handy" was not a German word to begin with. And come on, it's not a bad word... a Handy is clearly something you hold in your hand. :3
Quote from: Rafe on December 03, 2007, 05:21:27 PMThe French created a whole bureaucracy (another French term) called Commission générale de terminologie et de néologie, to keep other languages, especially English, out. The Japanese came up with the tiny portable music player and gave it an English name "Walkman". Everybody called it that. Not the French. It had to be called "le baladeur" or it was illegal to sell it. Same for IPods - "le baladeur" again. Can't say "podcast" either. It has to be "Baladodiffusion". Software?, no it's "logiciel." Everyone in the world knows whae email is, but in France it's "courriel" (from "courrier", mail, and "électronique", electronic).
That's not a particularly French trait. Plenty of countries do the same. E.G. Icelandish and Swedish have local words for all the examples you give (in Swedish, software = mjukvaror; email = epost). In most cases, it's simply a matter of coming up with words that are A) pronouncable and B) make logical sense to native speakers. That's not chauvinism, it's being practical.
BTW, this is the third time in the two threads about this subject that someone has asserted that English is oh so hard to learn. Where did you get that idea? English is
easy: no inflections. Ever.
Quote from: zopey on December 03, 2007, 03:49:48 PM
what exactaly did amber hit fluffy with
it looks like a box of tissues or something
Call me crazy, but I think it's an eraser. (Please don't actually call me crazy, that's hurtful and mean.) :mowsad
For some reason, I started singing "So long and thanks for all the fish" when I read this comic. Maybe it's because I can't recall the Fraggle Rock theme song. Or maybe it's because that's what I hear Amber singing as she leaves her sanity behind. :kirby
Finally, I agree with what Amber said in her rant and you all are taking what she said as a quest for global domination. Sorry folks, she isn't Bungie, :mowninja she just thinks when new things come out people should call it the same name. Don't change what's already there, but why create more confusion? :mowdizzy
Quote from: Paul on December 03, 2007, 07:15:22 PM
BTW, this is the third time in the two threads about this subject that someone has asserted that English is oh so hard to learn. Where did you get that idea? English is easy: no inflections. Ever.
It's the vocabulary...which makes it hard to learn any language. It's ultra-extensive, especially in America where there is so much slang. Proper English may be easy to learn because for example the verbs aren't conjugated different ways. There's one word for many meanings and vice-versa, which also somewhat makes it hard to understand. One would have to spend a -lot- of time in America before they learn every term we use, and even then as the rant more or less shows, there are many different ways to say things in English depending on where you are. Just like Spanish; Mexico vs. say, Ecuador. It can also depend on the accent.
Guess it depends on where one learns it though.
Quote from: Alondro on December 03, 2007, 06:47:37 PM
*Charline LOVES Dunecat!* Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!! I want one! *stuffs a cat into a tube... stuff stuff stuff SQUISH.. * I broke my Dunecat. :<
*Charles knows that the Master Language will be his own!* Soon the world will speak only Piney! :mwaha
(http://www.furfire.org/janus/dunecat2.jpg)
My Dunecat has the spice eyes. :3
I'm not sure where the quote originated, but I have a shirt somewhere in my cupboard that has "English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleyways, knocks them over the head, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar."
I have nothing to add to the discussion otherwise.
Quote from: Aisha deCabre on December 03, 2007, 07:31:39 PM
Quote from: Paul on December 03, 2007, 07:15:22 PM
BTW, this is the third time in the two threads about this subject that someone has asserted that English is oh so hard to learn. Where did you get that idea? English is easy: no inflections. Ever.
It's the vocabulary...which makes it hard to learn any language. It's ultra-extensive, especially in America where there is so much slang. Proper English may be easy to learn because for example the verbs aren't conjugated different ways. There's one word for many meanings and vice-versa, which also somewhat makes it hard to understand. One would have to spend a -lot- of time in America before they learn every term we use, and even then as the rant more or less shows, there are many different ways to say things in English depending on where you are. Just like Spanish; Mexico vs. say, Ecuador. It can also depend on the accent.
Guess it depends on where one learns it though.
Not only that, but we are constantly adding new slang on a regular basis, and the slang varies from area to area. Sometimes we can barely understand each other.
There's also the delightful fact that conversational English is so different from written English. We butcher our own language and sometimes will completely disregard any and all grammatical rules. It can become extremely difficult and frustrating for a non-native to follow along.
At least, that's how we Americans roll.
I know, I would love to be able to use this pic in RL:
:inglesh
Perhaps Americans just keep the language on its toes to confuse anyone trying to fit in. :B
All languages have slang and dialects and double meanings and differences between written and spoken language and assorted other tricky bits. Yet learning them is easy - children do it! :)
It's really all the exceptions to the rules that make English confusing. Plurals, for example - most words, you just add an "s", but some get an "en" (ox - oxen) some get an "ren" (child - children), some get nothing (cannon - cannon, deer - deer).
Then there are weird pronounciation rules: "gh" can sound like "f" (laugh), "o" can sound like "i" (women), "ti" can cound like "sh" (action). I think it was Oscar Wilde who said in English you could spell "fish" ghoti.
I remember when they introduced the Canadian two dollar coin the government wanted to call it the Ducat, but the public "coined" it the Twonie which is a bastardization of the Loonie the one dollar coin so called because of the loon (bird) on the tails side of the coin, which was also name due to public popularity because we thought having coin dollars was silly. sometimes it is the people who name the object not the government personally I wanted to name it doubloons because it was a double loonie
The UK has it right with its coin terms. we have none.
Quote from: dannysaysnoo on December 04, 2007, 04:04:24 AM
The UK has it right with its coin terms. we have none.
What about 'quid'?
**EDIT**
OK, I can't think of any specific to coins themselves, but there are a lot of slang terms for the currency.
Quote from: Tapewolf on December 04, 2007, 05:25:09 AM
**EDIT**
OK, I can't think of any specific to coins themselves, but there are a lot of slang terms for the currency.
Quid, Bar, Squid. Just like Buck, dollar and such.
Japanese is really tricky too. It has borrowed from quite a few other languages. For instance, no one who knows modern Japanese can even read the writing carved into the base of the 200 year-old samurai sword I have. The characters changed that much!
On a side note. Amber was saying that the fraggle rock dolls are expensive and such nowadays, well LIES (http://cgi.ebay.com/FRAGGLE-ROCK-RED-JIM-HENSON-MUPPETS-PLUSH-DOLL-NWT_W0QQitemZ260188467199QQihZ016QQcategoryZ95262QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)!!!
I want a dunecat. :<
Go to Fraggle Rock (http://www.fragglerocker.com)
As far as using the same words globally, we can't even get Microsoft to use terms that have already become established in the computer science field.
Quote from: Naldru on December 04, 2007, 11:06:16 PM
Go to Fraggle Rock (http://www.fragglerocker.com)
As far as using the same words globally, we can't even get Microsoft to use terms that have already become established in the computer science field.
We'll be just fine, so long as we remember that "kilo" means 1024.
... unless it means 1000.
A. I think Fluffy got hit by a D.S.
While I can see where Amber is comming from, I think it hasn't been fully explored. While New terms for New things pop up all around the place, you have to give credit to how language evolves. I think there needs to be a distiction between new words via creation, or new words via slang
e.g. The couriel thing (French E-mail) butgs me, cause that was an atrificial move to translate a common term into French.
However, "Cell Phone" is a different situation. Cell Phone originally stood for Cellular Phone. Now if a language has words for Cellular and Phone, I do not expect them to use the term "Cellular Phone". And if they shorten the phrase in there own language, It's cool by me. I give credit for the evolution of slang, and if that happens, more power to them.
If a new word is created just for a new thing, e.g. computer, or iPod, then other languaged should try to conform, as there is no translation.
Language should be natural, not artificial, else we come to 1984's Doublespeak.
This thread is pro-pro-party-like!!!!
Quote from: Chaos on December 06, 2007, 12:33:57 AMWhile I can see where Amber is comming from, I think it hasn't been fully explored. While New terms for New things pop up all around the place, you have to give credit to how language evolves. I think there needs to be a distiction between new words via creation, or new words via slang
e.g. The couriel thing (French E-mail) butgs me, cause that was an atrificial move to translate a common term into French.
Uh what? "Email" is only common in
English. All languages have words for "mail" already - so you stick an abbreviation of "electronic" in front or behind, and bingo: email, epost, ebrev, courriel, corrio-e, etc.
I'm not sure what you mean by "an artificial move to translate". All new words are, strictly speaking, artificial. You can introduce a word or a term, but whether it catches on is entirely up to people in general. You can't force a word through if people don't like it.
Quote from: Chaos on December 06, 2007, 12:33:57 AMIf a new word is created just for a new thing, e.g. computer, or iPod, then other languaged should try to conform, as there is no translation.
There are fewer entirely new words created than people seem to think. "Computer" is derived from "compute" - to calculate - a word that all languages already have their own versions of. So of course they'd use those. iPod is a new word, but it's also brand name, and brand names never get translated.
Quote from: Paul on December 06, 2007, 03:26:01 AM
There are fewer entirely new words created than people seem to think. "Computer" is derived from "compute" - to calculate - a word that all languages already have their own versions of. So of course they'd use those. iPod is a new word, but it's also brand name, and brand names never get translated.
My understanding is that a hundred years ago, a computer was a person who you sat down in a room and did arithmetic all day. Before electronic computers were invented, there was a chemist who had an uncle who loved to do arithmetic. His research involved massive amounts of calculations, so once a week he would visit his uncle and drop off the latest set of problems to be worked out. I was told that it gave him a giant advantage over the other scientists of the period.
The term torpedo is actually a shortened form of the term locomotive torpedo. A torpedo meant an explosive device, so a locomotive torpedo was an explosive device that propelled itself. The term destroyer is actually short for torpedo boat destroyer, a vessel that was designed to protect the fleet against small fast craft that would rush in and fire locomotive torpedoes at the capital ships.
The terms hood and bonnet both refer to a covering for the head. They both cover the engine at the "head" of the car.
A boot is actually a leather covering. The old stagecoaches had a space at the back where you could store luggage and it was covered by a large piece of leather. For this reason, the luggage compartment was called the boot. Some early cars had a trunk (the kind people used for shipping things) strapped down to the back of the car for storage. That is the source of the two words for the storage area in a car.
The reason that the British called vacuum tubes valves was that they controlled the flow of electricity in a circuit like a valve in a water pipe controls the flow of water. In web servers, a valve refers to a piece of software that controls the flow of information between two software components, In computer technology a pipe is a mechanism for transferring data between two software components in the same way that a water pipe carries water.
What I'm saying is that in many cases, people used existing words when new products were developed. There were often multiple words that could be used, and it was only natural that people in geographically separated areas would settle on different words.
Quote from: Naldru on December 06, 2007, 06:40:33 AM
The reason that the British called vacuum tubes valves was that they controlled the flow of electricity in a circuit like a valve in a water pipe controls the flow of water.
We still do >:3
The full term was 'thermionic valve' or 'electron valve', but it was shortened to just 'valve'.
IIRC the Russian term means 'lamp' or 'light', so like the US they named it after what it looks like, while the British named it after what does.
IIRC the German term for 'light bulb' means 'pear', which is kind of cute. I wish we'd done that.
**EDIT**
And the use of the term 'computer' meaning a person continued until the 50s, as I recall, when electronic and electromechanical computers started to become more common. Something to bear in mind when reading classic SF.
Quote from: Tapewolf on December 06, 2007, 07:02:05 AM
Quote from: Naldru on December 06, 2007, 06:40:33 AM
The reason that the British called vacuum tubes valves was that they controlled the flow of electricity in a circuit like a valve in a water pipe controls the flow of water.
We still do >:3
Dang crazy Brits! With yer 'aluminium' and 'chips'! It's FRENCH FRIES, goddammit!>:O
*going ballistic over nothing is fun* :3
Quote from: Alondro on December 06, 2007, 08:45:15 AM
Dang crazy Brits! With yer 'aluminium' and 'chips'! It's FRENCH FRIES, goddammit!>:O
French Fries are little tiny slivers of stringy potato. (Or worse, something vaguely resembling potato). Chips are about the size of your little finger.
Or, if you're in NZ, they're what the English call "crisps" as well. Just for bonus confusion. ;-]
Whats weird is that on your chips, most have slat and vinegar, and on your crisps/chips, you can have a salt and vinegar flavor.