Thoughts: Does DMFA need a reading guide?

[Sofox]

Most of us here are fans of DMFA, and that's fine, but I'm starting to wonder more about new readers to DMFA. I've seen this problem crop up with TV series with concurrent spinoffs and even other webcomics that have parallel comics (eg. Precocious with Copper Road). The basic problem is that while it's fine to keep track of what's going on if you read everything as it comes out, if someone came to read DMFA now, they'd find multiple strips with no idea in which order to read things.

When should they read Able's story? Should they let the main DMFA spoil some of Able's story, or should they read Able's story round about the time it was released with DMFA. Right now a comic has come out about a clan leader dieing, so obviously Mink's clan leader summary should be read before the cubi meeting for this and othe reasons, but there's absolutely nothing to indicate when it should be read (should a reader read it before even starting DMFA?). If DMFA ever does end one day, the problem will become complicated, because a new reader will have to decide when to read each piece of material, knowing they should read each peace after the start but before the end of DMFA, but not knowing exactly when.

This is going to confuse the heck out of new readers, and as everyone knows, new readers are vital to webcomics, especially when the archive gets bigger and harder to get through.

I think that there needs to be a reading guide that settles this, and then the main DMFA site be updated so that new readers know when to read this or that, maybe with links in the archive pages.

Thoughts?

[Tapewolf]

What I suspect often happens is that people pick up off the main archives and ignore the side-stories, a problem I am likely to face once Epsilon launches.

FWIW, Abel's Story was designed to work standalone, so if you were preparing a reader that might be a good starting place.  I did wonder if that might give people wrong expectations given that Abel's Story is a higher rating and particularly dark, but given the way the main story has been getting darker and darker over the last year or two the differences seem to be narrowing.

EDIT: Personally I consider the old Dark Pegasus arc to be the place where DMFA really starts to get into gear.

[Lying Foo]

The thing is just, not so much the quality, but that it's such a different strip for so long.  I can't even remember how I read it, but I think the flashback from Chapter 24 was first, Abel's story relatively early, and the first few chapters were definitely last.  I think I had tried once before, then going beginning to end, but found it so forgettable then that I'm not even sure it was this strip.  I vaguely remember being confused as to why all the fan content seemed to focus on Cubi, thinking Dan was supposed to be an incubus, realizing he "wasn't," and being confused again until I found my way to the relevant chapters.  It would be like trying to break into Sluggy Freelance if the first two years centered on Zoë at home with her family.

[Sofox]

I think Lying Foo is backing up my point here. If you're a new reader, the whole thing is very confusing. I count 2 side stories (Matilda and Able), one Perfect Date, and 4 Demo 101 mini-arcs.
Perfect Date is a good example, you read it too early, you'll spoil the fact that Aaryanna goes on to be a main character, you read it too late and suddenly Merlitz is back in the comic. Us fans have been following the comic for a while, but to a new reader there isn't the slightest hint of what order the side comics should be read. If a reader has to spend this much effort they'll either give up, it'll detract from their enjoyment of the comic, or they'll get it wrong and have things spoiled or placed out of order.

[Sofox]

(Double post, but for clear distinction)

Okay, let's try to tackle this. Able's Story is the main one, so let's look at it.

According to the archive.org Able Story starts around #568 (October 2005) during the Chapter 18: Unwilling and Abel at Cubi Academy.
It ends around #1129 (July 2010) during the Chapter 27: Randomosity arc. So it spans about 10 DMFA arcs.

It makes sense that the reader reads Able's Story between two DMFA arcs. Looking at the arc transitions, I'm voting that Able's Story should be read at the transition either before or after "Chapter 23: Continuity is for the weak!"
The reason I suggest this as it won't directly interrupt any ongoing storylines, and about midway through the original story's run, so fits in nicely.

Thoughts? Opinions?

[meltingface101]

There  is  a  modify  button  right  next  to  the  quote  button .

Yeah  the  archive  are  rather  massive , though  much  of  the  stuff  before  a  certain  point  isn't   even  considered  canon  anymore , and  most  of  the  side  stories  are  designed  to  be  read  at  any  time .

[Sofox]

most  of  the  side  stories  are  designed  to  be  read  at  any  time .

Actually, most side stories are designed to be read at the same point in the DMFA story that they were originally released alongside. There is some leeway of course, but I've given multiple examples where this things get annoying if you read a side story at the wrong time.

[meltingface101]

the  current  main  story  has  nothing  to  do  with  Matilda . Did  the  Abel  arc  start  shortly  after  he  was  introduced .

[Kazzellin]

I can see what you mean, though I do have to wonder if you're over-thinking it. *head scritch*

Personally, I started reading DMFA shortly after Ambaargh came back from that really long hiatus (while she was in college? The art jump was like, whoa.), and I read starting at the very beginning. Then again, I'm also type A when it comes to (web)comics and TV sitcoms - if I can't start at the beginning, and see it consecutively, I'd rather not deal with it. I'm rather silly, that way. On the other hand, I don't waste too much time watching TV (which doesn't really say much; I just borrowed the first season of Big Bang Theory from my brother, as he, his wife, and another member of our DnD group tend to refer to it at least once a game).

I can certainly see your point, though, but I have a concern if it does become a "let's do this" type of dealie. Two concerns, actually. First off, it's possible that having a "You should read the comic by jumping from arc X to arc Y then go back for side story A before continuing with main story Z and read arcs J-O whenever you want" could turn off some potential readers. Second, where would this proposed guide be plunked? In the forum, on the DMFA web-page itself, or in the Wikia (if I recall right, there is one?)?

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

There  is  a  modify  button  right  next  to  the  quote  button .

There's also a rules page. I believe I've already mentioned the one about "you're not a mod". This makes three times in the last couple of days you've come to my attention. This is not a good habit of yours. Do see fit to break said habit, before I have to break it for you.

You have been warned.

[Sofox]

Hey Kazzellin, I'm glad you see my point that there are a lot of people who feel they have to read things in the proper order.

In terms of what happens if it becomes a "let's do this", remember that this isn't for fans or long time readers, this will be for new readers new to DMFA so it'll need to be as front facing as possible. There are three possibilities: either a "New Reader? Read this!" page that details everything; or with links to the side story spread out in the archive itself.

I personally think that the best option would be to have an "Expanded Archive" system where all the side stories would be inserted in the main archive itself, and readers would be able to read through everything just by constantly clicking "Next". It would mean that the readers aren't constantly jostled around, and can get everything in the right order with minimal effort.

As you can guess, all methods will need Amber's approval and possibly a bit of work by her. I'd appreciate hearing her thoughts on the matter, but I figured in the meantime us fans could get some of the details worked out to make things easier for her.

[nichdel]

My fiancee recently read all of DMFA, so I know this situation firsthand. I had her read Abel's Story after the whole arc to 'save' Dan that ends with Abel heading to Lost Lake to help teach Dan. I don't really remember if this is when Abel's story ran, but it seemed an appropriate time for it. I also had her read Cubi Clan Leaders and Cubi Mind Abilities some time shortly after that section, when she knew more about cubi. As far as Matilda's Story, she read it right around the 'date' where Alexsi learns Pyroduck is a dragon. She didn't read anything else until she caught up with the main story, though with the recent news I wonder if people should read Hybrids in Furrae sometime before getting to this bombshell, for full effect.

I personally think that the best option would be to have an "Expanded Archive" system where all the side stories would be inserted in the main archive itself, and readers would be able to read through everything just by constantly clicking "Next". It would mean that the readers aren't constantly jostled around, and can get everything in the right order with minimal effort.

You would need to be careful to make sure they know that a sidestory is about to happen, and that it doesn't cut off the main story in a way that confuses/annoys them.

[Darkmoon]

I have to say that this sounds more like "over thinking" than a necessary process. Sure, there may some tid bits that are spoiled (or left unanswered for a while) if you don't read them as Amber wrote them, but for a lot of readers, I doubt it would make that big a difference one way or the other.

Looking at other media:

- Buffy the Vampire Slayer had Angel. I, personally, never got a chance to watch every season of both shows when they were on the air, so I had to catch up on DVD. Buffy seasons weren't released concurrently with Angel seasons, so trying to watch both, episode-by-episode, was impossible if I wanted to watch them as they came out on DVD. Plus, even if you could do it (Buffy season 4 ep 1, then Angel season 1 ep 1, then Buffy season 4 ep 2, etc etc), changing the discs constantly would be an absolute pain. I have friends that did watch it that way, and while I give them props for their commitment, it never felt necessary. Even now, going back and watching it with new fans, I'm usually like "Just watch Buffy until season 3, then skip to Angel, watch it all the way through, and if you really like Buffy that much, go back and watch season 4 through 7 later. Trust me, you're not missing much."

- Stat Trek has countless spinoffs, most of which fans are divided on. Is it necessary to watch Next Generation up til season four (I believe) and then switch back and forth between it and Deep Space Nine? What about when Voyager comes in? DS9 and VGR take place in different sectors, so do you need to watch each of them separately? What about the movies that technically take place in and around the series? Most fans just watch a set of one of the shows, and don't worry about continuity so much.

- DC Comics has so many titles, a lot of which tie in and around each other, with characters dying, being replaced, coming back, and then one or both versions dying again. As a fan of Green Lantern, I love picking up each new trade as they come out (not the issues, as those are hard to organize on my nice shelves), but there are four GL books running right now. Trying to keep up with each without losing place of what's happening to other characters is hard (especially if events happen in between issues in a single trade paperback). Plus, there's 50 years of back story I theoretically could catch up on, not all of which is easily accessible, and I'd never be able to read it all in one long shot straight through (especially if I try to work all the GL tie in books and larger DC events in). But I keep up with what I can, and I go back and read other side stories when I feel like it.

I think for a lot of fans of various media, reading the main archive (main title, watching the main show) of any particular series is the most important part. Catching up on side continuities and back stories comes later, and only if they really care. DMFA has been going on long enough that it's archive probably takes more than a couple of days for most people to read. If you try and make it more complex (even if it's in the name of making things "flow" better for the over all story) you'll probably just confuse a lot of new readers.

For one more example: My own comic (not to pimp it out, it's just really relevant to this post) has over 4300 comics in the "complete" archive. The main story is over 2000 comics long. For most new readers, I'm usually just like "eh, read the main archive first." I make notes in the commentaries where back stories can be stitched in, but I don't worry too much if people read everything. The goal of a good writer is to make everything works without worrying if people have read every single facet of your overly complex mythology.

In other words, I'm sure Amber is perfectly happy if people read her comic at all. I doubt she'd really want to make it more complex.

[Sprocketsdance]

Wooooords! ERMERGERD!    (in short, I agree with Darkmoon - it's a good idea but I think in actual practice it's just over-complicating things and if people want to read all the comic things, great. If not, cool. If they complain? Well, too bad. )

[meltingface101]

there  isn't  much  beyond  the  current  continuity  , which started  a  few  years  back . What  would  help  if  there  was  a  list  of  the  retcons  that  have  taken  place , and  how  they  relate  to  the  cast .

[Darkmoon]

More of a job for a wiki. I seem to recall DMFA has one...

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

More of a job for a wiki. I seem to recall DMFA has one...

Speaking of, if you want to write something up on there, and it's good enough, I'm sure Ambaargh will link it in and/or copy it into the main archive somewhere, somehow.


With suitable credits, of course.

[Damaris]

I think a wiki article is a fabulous idea - it gives people a way to read things in the "proper" order, so as not to spoil themselves, but is not a coding nightmare for Amber, especially since she doesn't do commentaries on each comic. And if a person doesn't care so much, then they don't have to follow it.

For what it's worth, Darkmoon, I do think you prove Sofox's point with the simple statement that you nod to where side stories could be stitched in during commentaries. It seems to me that (or a guide) is what he's advocating, rather than reordering the archive.

[Darkmoon]

Well, it should also be noted that I have commentaries for just about every single comic -- something Amber doesn't have. It would be hard for her to do the same thing in the flow of the series.

Besides, I'm pretty certain I countermand my own "reading guide" in two other areas of the site, thus proving that even my own reading guide can't be trusted.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Besides, I'm pretty certain I countermand my own "reading guide" in two other areas of the site, thus proving that even my own reading guide can't be trusted.

Yeah, but your reading sequence is variable, so it can be read in multiple different orders and still make sense and be reasonably okay.

[Kazzellin]

I think having something on the Wikia (Found it! http://dmfa.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page ) would be a good idea. There's already a timeline for births and similar, but not a time line for the stories themselves. Having a list of retconned or non-cannon/no longer cannon items would be a good thing also.

All Amber would need to do then, instead of burying herself in code hassles (which I'll admit was also a concern of mine), is put something along the lines of "New Readers check here" or "New Reader? Confused? Look here!" as a link to the relative article somewhere on the main page, probably either under the controls for the comic or in the area with the slacker tracker.  That way we avoid turning Amber into a work zombie that wants to kill us. Especially since (AFAIK) she *does* already have enough on her plate, without having failed that CON roll against sickliness.

Besides which, didn't she start things like Demo 101 and similar to alleviate reader confusion already? 

[meltingface101]

There  are  already  buttons  to  get  to  the  beginning  of  the  current  arc , though  they  have  yet  to  show  up  on  Katbox .
Also  is'nt  DMFA  built  in  such  a  manner  that  the  stories  don't  rely  to  much  on  continuity  so  as  not  to  scare  off  new  readers .

[Tuyu]

Is there a difference between "continuity" and "history"?

I've only been reading the comic regularly for two or three years. In the beginning there was much reading of the cast page and "who is that other person?" "what are they talking about?" and "when did that happen?" archive searches. That's normal for any comic that's been around for a while, whether or not there are deep ongoing story plots, and since plots have become a more central part of the comic, new readers are more likely to be a bit confused until they've read through a chunk of the archives.

I wouldn't be concerned too much with a "recommended reading order". A new reader is essentially picking up a book and starting to read in the middle. Their experience isn't going to be the same as it was for someone who started from the beginning, and I don't think it really can be.

I think it would be better for a new reader's guide to focus on "what you need to know to understand what's going on right now" rather than worrying about spoiling surprises that are buried in the archives.

[joshofspam]

Also  is'nt  DMFA  built  in  such  a  manner  that  the  stories  don't  rely  to  much  on  continuity  so  as  not  to  scare  off  new  readers .

I wouldn't say that. The comic keeps fucos on characters of interest to the story. Quite a few things are going on so we jumping around the place keeping track of everyone.

This is bound to happen with so many active characters having an effect on Furrae. To be perfectly honest, I side stories right away most of the time. But I often wonder if it would be a fun experiment to wait after I've seen the main character in the side story makes their first few appearances in the main story and see how I feel about them.

A wiki guide sounds good. But then, the person that is working on it would have to pester her about her earlier works to get a good bead on which are cannon elements and what are not......we at least know that Dan was Branded by Wildy, but the situation because of that might have changed.

[Darkmoon]

Honestly, I think most everything after the switch to color is supposed to be considered "canon". I know when i read through the archive, there was very little (after the black and white arcs) that I had to go "this doesn't make sense in the context of blah blah".

If anyone does put together a "reader's guide" for the wiki, it probably wouldn't be bad to have a short intro that says "here are some quick tidbits you should know going in. If the meat of the guide was then setup such as "During this arc in DMFA, we advise you read this side-arc first" with a little intro paragraph about what the arc covers (without spoilers, natch), that would probably make the most sense. Could even add in little bullet points of points of interest, new concepts or characters introduced, etc.

Just don't want to make it too detailed, because there is a whole wiki to go along with it already.