Furrae/DMFA CRPG project (modellers/concept artists wanted)

[tkg]

Ah, well if you need any more coders don't be afraid to give me a shout.

The coding part doesn't really belong to this particular project, but I'll keep it in mind.

I could help on that, my site's ultimate goal is for games, so, I woudn't find it much trouble to create a section for it on my site.

I've decided to try out Basecamp for our project managing needs, which doesn't require any personal webspace to run. Eventually though, we are most likely going to create a page where information and media about the game can be displayed, but that won't be due anytime in the near future. Also, if we ever decide to go for 'e107' instead (if Basecamp doesn't fit our needs), I'll consider it. Thanks for your offer at any rate



Not to double post, I'll just modify this one.
I have now completed the first build, this one being v0.00a - version numbers with a letter at the end can be everything from barely unstable to highly combustible, so be warned

The download link can be found here. It uses OpenGL for graphics, although it may still require DirectX to start up... I'm not all too sure on that one. You can read the 'read me'-file for information on how to use it - it does not, however, list any of the "quirks" that are still present, so I will list them below (some may be added at a later time):

- You can not yet create files within the editor itself. Use your OS' file manager for that.
- When you are saving a project or a map, it doesn't really matter what the file ending is - watch out so that you don't overwrite any important files this way (you must click the 'OK' button to confirm, so there is no accidentally opening a file by doubleclicking).
- Some of the commands in the top menu are there just as placeholders - if they don't seem to do anything what-so-ever, it's very likely that they simply have no function yet
- There is no real material system yet, so all objects use the first two textures in the 'Material' tab of the database window. Those two can be changed in whatever way you like, though (with the exception of their colour values and physics data, which isn't supported at this time).
- At the start, single-click somewhere on the screen, not on any GUI-elements, for the cursor to show up (exiting a window seem to have the same effect).
- When loading textures and meshes, only use resources that can be found in the sub-folders in the loaded project's folder... strange things may (or may not) happen otherwise.
- The meshes are of a custom format, so there's currently no feasible way to create them. This will change pretty soon, though.
- The edges on the terrain tiles may seem "broken" due to the normals not being smoothed across tile boundaries... since the meshes that makes up the tiles can be completely arbitrary, it's not quite as simple as it is with heightmaps. I haven't found a way to fix this yet, but it's ranking pretty high on my 'to-do' list.

Additionally, a few things to get you started:
- Select 'Load project' in the 'File' submenu at the top. Go to 'projects/Test project', click 'Test project.prj' and then the 'OK' button. This loads a preset database you can play around with.
- Add any texture you like somewhere underneath the project folder ('projects/Test project' in this case) to make them usable in the editor.
- The cell overview shows a map of 9x9 cells at a time. Clicking on any of the squares performs the command chosen in the buttons underneath. Also, to jump to any cell on the map (0 to 65535 in both axes), type the cell number in the boxes under the cell list and click the 'Center map on cell'-button. Use the 'Place camera' function to load the cells around any given position on the map.

I could surely list a great number of other things here as well, but I think I'll hit the bed now so you'll just have to explore around a little by yourselves
Please note that the editor is still abhorrently buggy, so expect errors to happen pretty often. Any bug reports (no matter how small) will be highly appreciated.

[Aridas]

Everything you can do with the editor right now is so confusing to just... do. o.o

[ShiningShadow]

I like this idea you have there and I saw the pics of the characters. This game will be very popular you have a hit there. Just keep doing what are you doing right now don't stop I can't wait for this to come out........

[tkg]

Everything you can do with the editor right now is so confusing to just... do. o.o

You're probably right - I don't see things like this myself as the creator of it. I really should make the help file some time soon. Which reminds me...



For all of you who are experiencing problems using the editor: A report of some sort would help much in the improvement of it, as it would clarify issues that I may have completely overlooked.

If you're simply stuck, something like this would do great: "I tried to load a project file, but I can't find which file to load, as the browser is way too cluttered." or "I can't seem to modify the terrain the way it says in the 'read me'-file, as there is no terrain present!"

Or, if you know what to do and how to do it, but it's still rather cumbersome (and you perhaps know an easier way): "When loading project files, it would make better sense to have the browser be directed to the 'project'-folder automatically (instead of having to go there manually), seeing as this is where all projects are stored anyway." (this particular issue will be fixed by the next build, by the way).

Feedback like this would help immensely, as I don't really see the shortcomings of the editor myself. Much like artists when they ask for criticism on art boards, I gather

I like this idea you have there and I saw the pics of the characters. This game will be very popular you have a hit there. Just keep doing what are you doing right now don't stop I can't wait for this to come out........

Thanks, we will indeed strive to make it a fun game to play (what would've been the point otherwise?)
Just how popular it turns out to be will still remain questionable until we get far enough into the development process, though.

[Tapewolf]

It won't run since it requires OpenAL.  I don't think I've ever seen a program that uses it before in my life, so I'll have to try it again later when I've got it.

[tkg]

It won't run since it requires OpenAL.  I don't think I've ever seen a program that uses it before in my life, so I'll have to try it again later when I've got it.

Hmmm... I should've thought of unlinking it before this release, since the editor doesn't make use of any sound yet (although it will eventually). OpenAL can still be downloaded here, but if you want, I can compile a new version without the OpenAL-support.

This should really have been mentioned in the 'read me' now that I think about it

[Tapewolf]

Hmmm... I should've thought of unlinking it before this release, since the editor doesn't make use of any sound yet (although it will eventually). OpenAL can still be downloaded here, but if you want, I can compile a new version without the OpenAL-support.

I've got it now, I just don't want to go back to Windows yet.  And yes, it might be an idea to drop 3D sound support in the editor until we actually need it.

[tkg]

I've got it now, I just don't want to go back to Windows yet.  And yes, it might be an idea to drop 3D sound support in the editor until we actually need it.

Isn't there a Linux version of it on that page as well (as 'OpenAL binary RPM')? Assuming Linux is what you currently use, that is

Anyways, an OpenAL-devoid build of the editor is now available here with the same name as before - those of you who have downloaded the earlier version will only need to replace the 'World builder.exe'-file.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Assuming that a linux person uses redhat, or an RPM based distro, is, IME, a tough call.  Redhat (or deadrat) is a very "windows"-y linux. It's big, bloated, very much a large black box, and you can't screw with any of the pieces unless it's in certain restricted ways, and most of the ways are tightly controlled to stop you from being stupid.

As someone commented, unix doesn't stop you from doing stupid things because it means it would also stop you from doing some very clever things. For an example, figuring out how much memory is in use on a machine by counting the number of bytes in the virtual filesystem item that is a reference to the physical RAM... Or transferring data from one machine to another by means of writing chunks of it into the comments area of a database, then pulling it out over the net and reassembling it at the other end.

If you're interested, have a look at this :-)

[Tapewolf]

Okay, it seems that thanks to nVidia's totally sh_t drivers, my OpenGL subsystem is terminally screwed.  It's not just your program, because Truespace dies in exactly the same way.  I'll look to see if I can find a fix for that, but in the meantime, is there a way to tell Irrlicht not to touch the OpenGL backend on pain of death?

And yes, there's a linux version of OpenAL, but not a linux version of the worldbuilder, so it doesn't make much difference

[Ducjo_Orpor]

Just when I'd gotten used to the idea of a 2D Furre, you people pull this on me? CRAZY! But it gives me a chance to not be an idiot like in the last thread.  :
But I've learned my lesson. THIS time, I have low expectations!

I'm not into the whole "3D graphics creation process", so it would be pointless for me to try to use the WorldCreator. Good luck with that for those whom have knowlege greater than my own.

Also, w00t.

[Tapewolf]

Okay.. I took the drastic step of running the Worldbuilder in WINE, since nVidia's Windows drivers are even less stable than their Linux ones.  It starts up, and lets you load files, but the main screen is pure blue.  Is this normal?

[tkg]

Assuming that a linux person uses redhat, or an RPM based distro, is, IME, a tough call.  Redhat (or deadrat) is a very "windows"-y linux. It's big, bloated, very much a large black box, and you can't screw with any of the pieces unless it's in certain restricted ways, and most of the ways are tightly controlled to stop you from being stupid.

Aha... good to know. I knew there were different versions of it, but they have been little than just names to me. Since I do plan to have the engine running on some version of Linux after all, I'd better do some research in the field.

If you're interested, have a look at this :-)

Although I didn't exactly understand anything of the code, the concept itself was fascinating in its own ridiculous way

Okay.. I took the drastic step of running the Worldbuilder in WINE, since nVidia's Windows drivers are even less stable that their Linux ones.  It starts up, and lets you load files, but the main screen is pure blue.  Is this normal?

Yes, everything except for a few GUI-elements will be blue at start-up, because there simply is nothing to show in the scene yet. Try loading a project (files with a .prj-ending) and go to 'Tools->Cell overview' on the menu bar, then placing a few cells in the map window (the frame with 9x9 squares in it) by clicking on some of the squares. If you now select the 'Place camera' button and click somewhere in the vicinity of your cells on the map, you will be transported there and the cells around you loaded into the scene. Hope that helps a bit

Edit: Something I forgot to mention, though; whether you see anything also depends on if there are valid meshes and materials loaded into the object types used by the terrain tiles. If the terrain is completely white, it is a clear sign that the material assigned to its object type can't load the texture specified in its properties.
Load 'projects/Test project/Test project.prj' if you want a preset database where eight different object types have already been set up.

[Tapewolf]

http://www.jpmorris.force9.co.uk/stuff/dmfaedit1.jpg

..I was a bit surprised that the example project and maps were empty, but there you go.  Pretty impressive, doubly so that it runs under WINE.  (Like RTCW, where the Windows version ran better under Linux than it did in Windows.  Native Linux builds are better, though)

[tkg]

..I was a bit surprised that the example project and maps were empty, but there you go.  Pretty impressive, doubly so that it runs under WINE.  (Like RTCW, where the Windows version ran better under Linux than it did in Windows.  Native Linux builds are better, though)

Great to hear that it works! I see you have discovered one of its many flaws (with the separated terrain and all), but I'm going to deal with that issue the same way the Morrowind CS does - namely having it join together when you smoothen it. The smoothing tool itself has yet to be created though.

[Ducjo_Orpor]

*picture*
http://www.jpmorris.force9.co.uk/stuff/dmfaedit1.jpg

..I was a bit surprised that the example project and maps were empty, but there you go.  Pretty impressive, doubly so that it runs under WINE.  (Like RTCW, where the Windows version ran better under Linux than it did in Windows.  Native Linux builds are better, though)

What's that supposed to be,  the bottomless pit of light-blue despair?

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Although I didn't exactly understand anything of the code, the concept itself was fascinating in its own ridiculous way

I believe the idea is, if you understand the code, you probably should have been locked up years ago.

Or -are- locked up. :-)

-Some- of it is fairly easy to follow. Some of it is more difficult. Some of it is downright masochistic. :-)

[Aridas]

I made it crash. Can I have a cookie?

[Tapewolf]

Is there any way to move objects around yet, like trees?  It kind of sucks to have them floating in mid-air.  Dynamic positioning would be nice, but being able to type in the X,Y and Z coordinates would be okay for now.

By the way, it seems to confiscate the trees when you move from one cell to another.  This should be a higher priority than the lining-up-the-edges thing, IMHO

[tkg]

I believe the idea is, if you understand the code, you probably should have been locked up years ago.

Or -are- locked up. :-)

-Some- of it is fairly easy to follow. Some of it is more difficult. Some of it is downright masochistic. :-)

Hehe, I see... I should probably be well off in the clear, then.

I made it crash. Can I have a cookie?

If you tell me just what you did to cause that, then maybe

Is there any way to move objects around yet, like trees?  It kind of sucks to have them floating in mid-air.  Dynamic positioning would be nice, but being able to type in the X,Y and Z coordinates would be okay for now.

Dynamic positioning is possible, but you must first select the object(s) by using the object selection tool, and then use the object positioning tool to drag them around. Previously you could choose in the toolbar what axes you wanted the object to move along, but the buttons were removed as I wanted them to be in the tool settings instead. Needless to say, I didn't get around to do that at the time, as I was focusing more on fixing the problems that currently existed in the terrain engine (if you think it's bad now, you should've seen it one week ago...).
Having keyboard input for positioning is a good idea - I'll think about adding it for the next release. A 'set object at camera' button could perhaps also come in handy.

By the way, it seems to confiscate the trees when you move from one cell to another.  This should be a higher priority than the lining-up-the-edges thing, IMHO

The object support is generally rather poor in this build - the cells do not even take them in account at all, which means that while the terrain and camera are displaced to prevent them from "drifting" too far off the origin, the objects aren't. I will probably have it fixed in the next couple of days or so.

[Ducjo_Orpor]

I made it crash. Can I have a cookie?

[Lomgren]

Hrm.  Played around with it a bit, did find the "edges not lining up" bug as mentioned already.  Couldn't there be a way to read the edge of the previously existing cells and have it automatically map to that height?

Also, is there any way of rotating the camera yet?  I didn't find a method for doing that...

And also, in the cell overview... it seems that it would make sense for the camera to be placed so that it looks at cells from bottom to top, not right to left.  It seems more intuitive that way... The camera is currently placed on the right side of the grid, not the bottom.

[ShiningShadow]

I made it crash. Can I have a cookie?

here have some  ..........

[tkg]

Hrm.  Played around with it a bit, did find the "edges not lining up" bug as mentioned already.  Couldn't there be a way to read the edge of the previously existing cells and have it automatically map to that height?

Yes, but that would make the cell loading somewhat slower - IMO it's slow enough as it is

Also, is there any way of rotating the camera yet?  I didn't find a method for doing that...

You switch between editing/roaming mode on either the space bar, or the rightmost button on the tool bar. While in roaming mode, you can fly around using ordinary FPS-controls.

And also, in the cell overview... it seems that it would make sense for the camera to be placed so that it looks at cells from bottom to top, not right to left.  It seems more intuitive that way... The camera is currently placed on the right side of the grid, not the bottom.

When you place the camera, it itself doesn't actually move at all - the terrain is just created/moved around it. I do like your idea though, which shouldn't be that hard to implement.



The poll has now concluded. As I forgot to set the timer on it, I'll just list the final results here:

Total votes: 23
- LostIncLake (LIL): 0 votes
- Lost Lake Inc. (LLI): 2 votes
- CrossWorks: 5 votes
- Lost Lake Ltd. (LLL): 6 votes
- Team Furrae: 10 votes

Team Furrae it is, then. I'll just go ahead and set up the Basecamp-account, so that we can move our 'base of operations' over there. Thanks to all of you who participated in the poll!

Now, as we're done with the voting and all... how do you go about to stop that thing?


Edit: Fixed typo.

[Aridas]

Hit it. With a brick.

Oh, and about reproducing my bug, you have to act like you have no friggin idea what you're doing. Mess around with the cells and the camera and do weirdass things with the terrain editor's functions, basically. It should happen again soon.

[tkg]

Ok, I think we're ready to make some real progress here, which means that we'll need far more people over at Basecamp pretty soon. Releasing version 0.00b of the World Builder here in the meantime


Changes and additions since the previous version:

- When placing the camera in the cell overview, it will always be centered on the cell, facing straight downwards (there is one problem with it though, which you will certainly notice when you try to rotate the camera - will be fixed at some point).

- Objects can now go beyond cell borders and become the property of another cell. In other words, the objects should behave just as you would expect them to - perhaps with the exception of it being deleted if you move it into a non-existant cell.

- Three different modes have been added to the tile elevation tool (raise/lower, smoothen and flatten). Smoothening doesn't really work for anything else than joining "split terrain" as of yet. You'll find these in the tool settings for the tool.

- Axis modes have been added to the object positioning tool, which makes you able to move objects along 6 different axis sets (ZX, XY, YZ, X, Y and Z). These can also be found in the tool settings.

- You can now change the parameters for the video driver yourself by editing the 'config.xml'-file that can be found in the same directory as the executable.


I think I got down all of the most important changes/additions, but there are a few more minor fixes to it as well, of course.

As an end note, it would be great if those of you who haven't got your Basecamp account so far could send me a PM, so that I can set them up for you. This goes mainly for all the previous team applicants, but any new ones may hop on as well - it's certainly not too late yet

[Hilary]

I'm useless on programming and such, but this looks like fun and I'd be happy to lend my voice to the game, if needed.

[Tapewolf]

I'll see if this works in Windows later, but under Linux, the OpenGL driver is twice as fast as the D3D9 driver (probably because it's being translated to OpenGL calls anyway).  This is good in a way, because when I first ran it I thought the performance had been crippled by some new feature

Map loading seems to be more straightforward and the demo map is good.  I'm still not clear how objects are edited once they're placed on the map, but I'll see if I can work it out tomorrow.

[Aridas]

Aw, it crashes if I try to load my old map and go into cell overview

[tkg]

Aw, it crashes if I try to load my old map and go into cell overview

I believe it would, seeing as maps created in these two builds are not compatible with each other. The loading/saving routines aren't stable yet (meaning that they vary from build to build), but I plan to have them backwards-compatible by the time the editor hits v0.01. For now though, please do not create areas that you intend to keep