(Amber vs Computers: Rd 4) *update: Culprit found*

[Naldru]

I have found that finding a repair shop that you trust is probably the most important computer skill that you can develop.

As for trying to repair it yourself, I remember a little bit from the Newhart show.

Tom Poston:  I can arrange for a plumber to come out and install the new hot water heater.  He'll charge about a hundred fifty dollars.

Bob Newhart:  You do all the repairs around the inn.    Do we really need to spend that much money.  Don't you know anything about installing a hot water heater.

Tom Poston:  I know that a plumber charges about a hundred fifty dollars to install it.


****

My bad.  It was apparently installation of a furnace for eighty dollars.

[Cvstos]

I've had that happen on a new computer build. Wouldn't even start. Just screamed at me.

I'd second the recommendation of getting a Corsair PSU. They're generally very good PSUs (and memory!). If I had built my last system that's the brand I would have used.

[AmigaDragon]

Mucking around with repairing computer parts tends not to be fun.  Especially when the inner working is part of a power supply which is typically pushing through enough electricity to kill you  :

Not too likely. PSUs have regulations that include protection against shocks. Also the voltage levels aren't high enough to warrant lethal damage, and repairing the fan doesn't require touching the circuitry anyway - the fan is typically connected to the PSU via a wire, thus it's easy to replace or fix it risk-free.

If Mason (or any other techie friend) is comfortable with heating up a soldering iron, the fan replacement in the PSU is a very simple job. Even if you replace the PSU, change the fan and that should give you a usable backup supply.

Especially when the inner working is part of a power supply which is typically pushing through enough electricity to kill you

You don't open up a PSU without unplugging the input cord, and you need to do that to remove the PSU in order to open it up for repairs, by which time the caps should be discharged, but discharge them anyway to be sure.
I've seen some PSUs with their fans plugged into the board but most are soldered in.

[Jack McSlay]

...

I wasn't suggesting that adding another fan would be instead of replacing the PSU. I was suggesting that, since she's already burnt one out, it might be a good idea to get some sort of monitoring on the ones that are already in there.

An additional fan would be something to discuss with the guys who are looking at her PC, as an optional extra to help it remain stable under high pressure, since she's already mentioned instability in photoshop in the past.

Highly unlikely. The symptoms she mentioned are of software malfunctions, not overheating.
Overheating often cause programs to glitch before crashing, and then crashing the whole system, not a single program. If the processor is an Intel, it should only reduce performance.

An extra fan may help reducing the heat, but it's completely unecessary for non-overclocked PCs, assuming the PC has a quality PSU and uses the CPU fan provided by the CPU manufacturer (or better). Also, extra fans will increase noise, making it harder to listen to the sound of fans from the CPU/GPU/PSU, which could be used to identify malfunctioning fans otherwise

A monitoring device may be useful but not very justifiable for non-overclocked PCs either. A PSU fan failure in what, two years or so? That doesn't give a good reason to invest on bulky monitoring hardware, specially if confirms that the PSU was shutting itself down to prevent damage (as it likely did). After all, fan halts are caused by either mechanical jamming or component burnout (but 95% of the time mechanical jamming), not heating, unless you put in in an oven or something. (besides, I'm not sure you can connect a temp monitor to a PSU)
Getting the habit of lubricating the fans and cleaning the internals of the PC (or sending it to someone to do it) every 6 months or so helps increasing the fans' lifespans greatly already.

[RobbieThe1st]

*Heap o' text*
-Robbie

Translation: Sometimes a PSU rating isn't as advertised. (seriously dude, Amber doesn't work at MIT)

*sigh* I can't win. I try making a short and concise post that is readable by anyone(my first post), and I get people suggesting that perhaps I don't know what I am talking about. So, I make a long post that hopefully explains everything, providing proof of my points, and suddenly people complain that its unreadable.


Amber's current computer situation wise:
You probably won't go wrong taking it to the shop. I would be willing to bet you however that they won't just replace the fan; they will replace the unit because of liability issues.

If they give you a choice as to what new PSU you want, It would probably be a good idea to spend a few $ more, get something that is -not- a no-name brand and at least the 500W that you have already. Getting something with a higher wattage will not hurt anything, but you don't need to buy a 1000W PSU simply because the number is bigger.

I suggest asking them thoroughly about your choices; They may try to get you into a bit higher model than what you need, but as I said, it won't hurt anything.


As far as needing an additional fan, I suggest that once the PC is home and working, it may be a good idea to install SpeedFan and then post a list of temperatures.
I am quite sure that there are plenty of people here who would be willing to walk Amber through the steps involved in this, if she so desired.


-Robbie

[Tapewolf]

Highly unlikely. The symptoms she mentioned are of software malfunctions, not overheating.
Overheating often cause programs to glitch before crashing, and then crashing the whole system, not a single program. If the processor is an Intel, it should only reduce performance.

The CPU is not the only component which is heat-sensitive.  Besides which, I've seen Intel chips choke due to heat as well.
Either way, if the PSU starts to malfunction due to heat stress it will affect the rest of the system, especially under CPU-intensive situations if it can't provide the needed current.  Turnsky tore his computer apart trying to find out why Photoshop etc would die and that turned out to be a failing power supply.

[Reese Tora]

huh, fix one thing, and it turns out to be something else...

atleast the problems aren't this bad:
http://icanhascheezburger.com/2009/04/19/funny-pictures-heres-your-problem/

I hope your computer gets well soon

[Turnsky]

Highly unlikely. The symptoms she mentioned are of software malfunctions, not overheating.
Overheating often cause programs to glitch before crashing, and then crashing the whole system, not a single program. If the processor is an Intel, it should only reduce performance.

The CPU is not the only component which is heat-sensitive.  Besides which, I've seen Intel chips choke due to heat as well.
Either way, if the PSU starts to malfunction due to heat stress it will affect the rest of the system, especially under CPU-intensive situations if it can't provide the needed current.  Turnsky tore his computer apart trying to find out why Photoshop etc would die and that turned out to be a failing power supply.

in my case it was the system bluescreening whenever the hard drives tried to draw power. it took a little hunting down to figure that out (microsoft do so love to keep their error codes in a handy list, and can actually be helpful) replacement of said PSU solved my problem with no damage to my system.

That said, everything in a case that draws power generates heat, the PSU is one of the core parts, and can suffer through the same heat issues as your CPU.
Ignore what folks say about 'dirty power' and 'power surges' and crap like that, you can get a surge protector if you're paranoid, but the vast arrays of capacitors in your PSU smooth out so-called "dirty power", and the only things that can protect a PC against immense power surges like lightning strikes, are either common sense, or insurance.

[Tapewolf]

Ignore what folks say about 'dirty power' and 'power surges' and crap like that, you can get a surge protector if you're paranoid, but the vast arrays of capacitors in your PSU smooth out so-called "dirty power", and the only things that can protect a PC against immense power surges like lightning strikes, are either common sense, or insurance.

I think Robbie was talking about what comes out of the PSU, not what goes into it.  Electrolytic capacitors can only take you so far, and as someone who's had to replace a bunch of the things, they can and do fail.  Especially if they get too hot.

EDIT:
Actually I didn't know this, but it turns out that ripple in the output is the major drawback of switched-mode power supplies as opposed to linear ones.

[Turnsky]

Ignore what folks say about 'dirty power' and 'power surges' and crap like that, you can get a surge protector if you're paranoid, but the vast arrays of capacitors in your PSU smooth out so-called "dirty power", and the only things that can protect a PC against immense power surges like lightning strikes, are either common sense, or insurance.

I think Robbie was talking about what comes out of the PSU, not what goes into it.  Electrolytic capacitors can only take you so far, and as someone who's had to replace a bunch of the things, they can and do fail.  Especially if they get too hot.

EDIT:
Actually I didn't know this, but it turns out that ripple in the output is the major drawback of switched-mode power supplies as opposed to linear ones.

ah, i was too busy trying to translate the gobbledygook to get his point. 

either way, a PSU isn't an expensive replacement, nor a hard one to replace.. just a pain in the butt putting all those cables back in.

as for options: Antec make a solid power supply, as does Coolermaster (i have a 500w in mine), that said, shop around, avoid aopen PSU's like the plague, and you should be fine, well enough to figure things out yourself without confusing banter from us, anyways.

For all the words said and wrote, in the end all they said was nothing.

[Jack McSlay]

The CPU is not the only component which is heat-sensitive.  Besides which, I've seen Intel chips choke due to heat as well.

That's why I said it "should" and not "will"

Either way, if the PSU starts to malfunction due to heat stress it will affect the rest of the system, especially under CPU-intensive situations if it can't provide the needed current.  Turnsky tore his computer apart trying to find out why Photoshop etc would die and that turned out to be a failing power supply.

might be, but what I meant is a hardware problem should be noticeable on every application, altough some more than others depending on their needs

As for output ripple, it is there, but normally not a huge problem. Quality, modern motherboards can handle surges very well during normal operation, and they do need to filter them and switch voltages often anyway. It only MAY become a problem if the PSU is old and worn-out. Output ripple is usually an overclocker's concern. Installing surge protection equipment in enough for most users.

[Alondro]

Be sure to poke the power supply frequently with a bare copper wire.

If you get electrocuted, there is power.   

[Amber Williams]

Well the beastie is now in the shop. They're gonna do a quick system diagnostic to make sure nothing else got hit with the heat, and give me a call when they get a full diagnosis. Odds are I will be getting the power supply changed out.  Luckily it seems they aren't all that swamped so should be done tonight hopefully if not tomorrow morning.

Fortunately Mason's taxes came back at a good time so we should be able to afford this no problem. Its just a minor aggravation in terms of timing.

[Tapewolf]

Well the beastie is now in the shop. They're gonna do a quick system diagnostic to make sure nothing else got hit with the heat, and give me a call when they get a full diagnosis. Odds are I will be getting the power supply changed out.  Luckily it seems they aren't all that swamped so should be done tonight hopefully if not tomorrow morning.

Sounds good.  Any updates with the immigration process, if I may ask?

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

might be, but what I meant is a hardware problem should be noticeable on every application, altough some more than others depending on their needs

Mmhmm. And Amber uses photoshop 9/10ths of the time, and "everything else" less than a tenth. And isn't a geek, so may or may not notice things going wrong unexpectedly during the other 1/10th of the time.

My responses were tailored for her, not for the rest of us. If you want, I can presume that she has intense interest in computers and a fairly high level of knowledge of these sorts of things, but honestly, if she did, this whole thread wouldn't have started.


Oh, and I was thinking, as per Robbie, of something like SpeedFan. Or possibly the motherboard app. Just something sitting in the system tray to monitor the CPU fan and heat - which would likely have been enough to let her know this was happening. And wouldn't require any more hardware than she already has...

But I feel I might well be flogging a dead horse. I know Amber isn't really interested, so why bother going on and on and on about it? *shrug*

[Mao]

But I feel I might well be flogging a dead horse. I know Amber isn't really interested, so why bother going on and on and on about it? *shrug*

That we may all wave our mighty e-peens!*thumps chest repeatedly*

The victor will be praised by their god-queen who will lavish them with love and arts that all will know that their e-peen is largest!

[Jack McSlay]

Mmhmm. And Amber uses photoshop 9/10ths of the time, and "everything else" less than a tenth. And isn't a geek, so may or may not notice things going wrong unexpectedly during the other 1/10th of the time.

The OS also counts. Therefore if she's not experiencing crashes more serious than just Photoshop having segmentation faults that were unmentioned, overheating is a little likely cause.

[Amber Williams]

Nother' update

The computer is back. As I was thinking, it was indeed the power supply. The fan was pretty much dead and so they replaced the whole thing with a new one which seems to be running good.

So it looks like things are back on track.

[Madd the Sane]

It is also possible for a bad power supply to fry other components.  Since the computer came back and they didn't say anything about bad components, and I will assume that they ran tests, the other components should be just fine.

[Jairus]

Nother' update

The computer is back. As I was thinking, it was indeed the power supply. The fan was pretty much dead and so they replaced the whole thing with a new one which seems to be running good.

So it looks like things are back on track.

The computer lives! Huzzah!

[Naldru]

Nother' update

The computer is back. As I was thinking, it was indeed the power supply. The fan was pretty much dead and so they replaced the whole thing with a new one which seems to be running good.

So it looks like things are back on track.

Which means that Amber's technique of taking it to the shop is successful.  I personally like the idea of Amber having time for producing beautiful art for our adoration rather than going crazy reattaching a dozen wires from the power supply plus those few wires you swear you didn't touch but somehow came loose anyway while working on the wires to the power supply.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Naldru:

Yes, I'm inclined to agree. If it works, it's all good. Amber generates enough stress all by herself. ;-]