Vinyl vs CD - compared

[Tapewolf]

No, I don't want to argue it, but this has to be the best comparison I've ever seen:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=g5dCMz4gKLI

[RobbieThe1st]

No, I don't want to argue it, but this has to be the best comparison I've ever seen:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=g5dCMz4gKLI

XD. Yup, when using a record player for both, a record will always sound better.

I know you don't want to argue this, but I like rambling on, so here is my view. This is just my(uneducated) opinion, so you can safely ignore it if you want.


Personally I really like CDs - it is digital to start with, which means that it is a bit less lossy when I rip it and convert to MP3 than taking a vinyl record, converting it to digital, and converting that to MP3.

Also, the basic equipment to just play a CD is smaller than the equipment to just play a vinyl record - it also is more portable(Try to imagine jogging anywhere with a record player slung on your back and enough batteries to power it).

Admittedly, with high-end equipment and a high quality sound system, I suppose a vinyl record would sound better, however that equipment costs a fair amount of money - a computer CD player only costs like $20, and you are going to get decent sound out of it.

CDs do have plenty of limitations however, for example; a CD has to be spun at a fairly high rate of speed, causing a gyroscopic effect. This is a problem if you attempt to tilt the device playing it, and so causes problems in mobile applications. For mobile applications, I really like the third option: A flash-based MP3/WAV/OGG/FLAC player. Every MP3 player I have seen also supports WAV, so if its big enough, you could keep uncompressed WAV files for the extra quality(and with 16-64GB CF cards, its possible to keep a whole lot around). If you don't mind lower quality files, MP3 or OGG is the way to go. FLAC would be nice, but I don't see much that supports it.


There probably is a bunch of stuff I missed, especially on the vinyl side, but I really don't know much about vinyl records aside from that you can hear pops and noise on lowish quality equipment.

Yea, I suppose I shouldn't have bothered to make this post, but I wrote it all up anyway, and why let it go to waste?


-RobbieThe1st

[Yugo]

The medium of records has a tendency to color the sound with a "warm" feel, similar to analog tapes. This is also a reason why some bands still record straight to analog type and then run that into a different format, because the tapes give the recording a color to it, instead of a straight, clean digital recording.

[LionHeart]

I don't know, I think the CD sounded better...

[Tapewolf]

I'm not a great vinyl fan myself, actually.  It wears out.  I do like the jackets, though.  Hence, most of my vinyl is things which I either couldn't get at a sensible price on CD (>$100 or some similarly messed-up price) or things like Tarkus which have an awesome cover, that I already have on CD.

The medium of records has a tendency to color the sound with a "warm" feel, similar to analog tapes. This is also a reason why some bands still record straight to analog type and then run that into a different format, because the tapes give the recording a color to it, instead of a straight, clean digital recording.

That's how I work, though it's mostly because the process is more interesting and more involved than simply clicking 'RENDER' and waiting.

[Jairus]

I am about to be skewered by every music fan on the forum, but I don't think I've ever even listened to a vinyl in my life. I know that my dad has a player somewhere, and I know that my parents have a few vinyls hidden away, but for me it's been tape, CDs, and MP3s most of my life.

[VSMIT]

*Skewers Jairus*
I actually prefer the sound of vinyl, because of that warmer sound.  Granted, it's not as clean sounding as a CD or MP3, but the sound makes up for it, IMO.

[Mao]

I've got to say sound wise I do prefer the vinyl but given the practicality of the CD to me the winner is sadly clear.  Though a strong case in the vinyls favor can be reproduced on the cd if the proper processes are followed.   (That color to the music or warm feel can be reproduced on the cd probably without the effort of dumping the sound to analogue and then to cd, but I wouldn't be exactly sure how to go about it)

[Vidar]

CD's can sound better than vinyl, if they would just record the damn things with the loudness turned down. Right now there is a bit of a war going on in the recording industry to let their cd's sound as loud as possible, thereby lowering the dynamic range of a cd rather considerably.
I've seen a youtube video on this subject, and the difference was audible even to my ears, and even with the crappy sound quality of a youtube video.
Most vinyl was recorded before this trend was happening, and as such vinyl tends to make better use of it's dynamic range, and thus can sound better, in spite of having a more limited dynamic range than a cd.

[Jairus]

CD's can sound better than vinyl, if they would just record the damn things with the loudness turned down. Right now there is a bit of a war going on in the recording industry to let their cd's sound as loud as possible, thereby lowering the dynamic range of a cd rather considerably.
I've seen a youtube video on this subject, and the difference was audible even to my ears, and even with the crappy sound quality of a youtube video.
Most vinyl was recorded before this trend was happening, and as such vinyl tends to make better use of it's dynamic range, and thus can sound better, in spite of having a more limited dynamic range than a cd.

Fascinating. I did not know that at all. Why is that?

[Tapewolf]

Fascinating. I did not know that at all. Why is that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

'Vapor Trails' by Rush is the classic example.  When I got it I thought it was copy-protected, because it kept going into digital distortion.

[Zorro]

The other thing is Vinyl records are recorded in three dimensions and not just two like a CD.

Sideways Grooves, yes, but also the up and down in the groves.  This was a MAJOR problem with developing Laser Record Players.

[RobbieThe1st]

Fascinating. I did not know that at all. Why is that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

'Vapor Trails' by Rush is the classic example.  When I got it I thought it was copy-protected, because it kept going into digital distortion.

That's just... Horrible. I despise even the mere thought of it. Come on, people - there *are* volume knobs on things for a reason.
I mean, personally, I always adjust things low enough so they don't hurt my ears(I use earphones), and so it really doesn't give any advantage to compress the sound - it just sounds worse.

Sadly, while I haven't come across it (at least not badly) on CDs I bought, I see it all the time in youtube videos, and various MP3s - I always thought it was just a crappy encoding, and not deliberate.

Personally, when I encode something, I always record it at fairly low volume in Audacity, then use the Amplify plugin to increase it so that the maximum peaks are -.1db(clipping unchecked). I have had good luck with this, so far at least.


-RobbieThe1st

[Jairus]

I have to say that as a sound noob, I'm really learning a lot from this thread. I mean, I don't know when I'll ever use this kind of information, but this is fascinating to say the least. Please continue, I'll pop up with a question if I don't get something.

Um, Amplify is an extra feature for Audacity that isn't included in the main program. Am I understanding that right?

[Tapewolf]

Um, Amplify is an extra feature for Audacity that isn't included in the main program. Am I understanding that right?

Doubtful.  Which version of Audacity are you using, and on which platform? I can't remember what the MacOS build is like, but on Linux and Win32 in 1.33 it should be under 'Effects', near the top.

QED:

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k216/tapewolf/scraps/amplify.png

[Jairus]

Um, Amplify is an extra feature for Audacity that isn't included in the main program. Am I understanding that right?

Doubtful.  Which version of Audacity are you using, and on which platform? I can't remember what the MacOS build is like, but on Linux and Win32 in 1.33 it should be under 'Effects', near the top.

Yeah, I am using the MacOS build. I just found it and fiddled with it a little bit. Stupid me: I though Amplify was a program name, not a feature. Never mind.

[Jack McSlay]

Personally I really like CDs - it is digital to start with, which means that it is a bit less lossy when I rip it and convert to MP3 than taking a vinyl record, converting it to digital, and converting that to MP3.

as far as I'm concerned, digital-to-digital conversion is aways more lossy than analog-to-digital.
An analog signal means sound in its purest form, so the quality loss is restricted to the conversion you make.
A digital signal means it's been previously converted from analog, (be it either straight from the studio recording or from a vinyl) so, converting it to another digital format means you have to convert it to uncompressed audio, and then re-compress it to the target format, meaning digital-to-digital conversion is somewhat equivalent to the loss of two consecutive analog-to-digital conversions.

however, if the equipment is not good enough to properly capture the audio from a vinyl, or if the vinyl is too worn out, that is another story

[Vidar]

Personally I really like CDs - it is digital to start with, which means that it is a bit less lossy when I rip it and convert to MP3 than taking a vinyl record, converting it to digital, and converting that to MP3.

as far as I'm concerned, digital-to-digital conversion is aways more lossy than analog-to-digital.
An analog signal means sound in its purest form, so the quality loss is restricted to the conversion you make.
A digital signal means it's been previously converted from analog, (be it either straight from the studio recording or from a vinyl) so, converting it to another digital format means you have to convert it to uncompressed audio, and then re-compress it to the target format, meaning digital-to-digital conversion is somewhat equivalent to the loss of two consecutive analog-to-digital conversions.

however, if the equipment is not good enough to properly capture the audio from a vinyl, or if the vinyl is too worn out, that is another story

Converting analogue to mp3 is not a one-step process. First the analogue audio has to be converted to an uncompressed digital format. Then the digital audio is compressed into an mp3.

Digital-to-digital conversion is ideally a direct copy, though taking a compressed audio file, and coverting it into a different format will be lossy.

[Dannysaysnoo]

I prefer CDs. 6 Vinyl switchers are a bit tedious.

[Tapewolf]

I prefer CDs. 6 Vinyl switchers are a bit tedious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Record_changer

...it worked, but it tended to damage the discs.

[Jairus]

I prefer CDs. 6 Vinyl switchers are a bit tedious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Record_changer

...it worked, but it tended to damage the discs.

Which is why I wouldn't use such a device. I may not know much about vinyls, but when handling CDs I try to avoid doing any damage to them so that I can have them for longer. A vinyl seems much more liable to be scratched than a CD... but then again I've never handled one, so I'm not certain. Better to be safe than sorry.

Besides, there's just something about manually loading a vinyl that looks cool. Or I could be a weirdo. A distinct possibility.

[RobbieThe1st]

Personally I really like CDs - it is digital to start with, which means that it is a bit less lossy when I rip it and convert to MP3 than taking a vinyl record, converting it to digital, and converting that to MP3.

as far as I'm concerned, digital-to-digital conversion is aways more lossy than analog-to-digital.
An analog signal means sound in its purest form, so the quality loss is restricted to the conversion you make.
A digital signal means it's been previously converted from analog, (be it either straight from the studio recording or from a vinyl) so, converting it to another digital format means you have to convert it to uncompressed audio, and then re-compress it to the target format, meaning digital-to-digital conversion is somewhat equivalent to the loss of two consecutive analog-to-digital conversions.

however, if the equipment is not good enough to properly capture the audio from a vinyl, or if the vinyl is too worn out, that is another story

Well, for one thing, audio CDs are comprised of uncompressed digital audio(take a look here, and so converting to MP3 is a one step(conversion) process. I could also keep it lossless and go to FLAC, or even not do any coding what-so-ever on it, add a header and keep it as an uncompressed WAV.
Going from analog Vinyl records to digital is more tricky, and even if you have a top-quality record-player, you may be limited by a less-than-perfect onboard-audio audio-in ADC, which may or may not have two channels. I personally would figure that a studio-quality ADC would probably work better, and be more precise than a cheap one embedded in a motherboard sound system, or even a reasonable-quality one in a add-on sound card.
Plus, and probably worst, is the fact that you can't really rip it at high-speed(1 or 2x perhaps... beyond that, probably not with any sort of reasonable quality).


-RobbieThe1st

[rabid_fox]

Cassettes.

[Tapewolf]

Cassettes.

Believe me, they sound even worse.  Especially if you put them on a turntable.

[Azlan]

Phonograph cylinders.

[ShadesFox]

Clay pots and grass.

[Jairus]

Paper.

Clay pots and grass.

Didn't they bust that myth on Mythbusters? The best they got was a low-frequency "woo" or something like that, if that. Still, they got to play with a really cool old Phonograph, and a gob-load of other neat gadgets too. Actually, that just describes Mythbusters in general, doesn't it?

[Tapewolf]

http://www.atrservice.com/products/item_details.php?item_id=72&dept_id=3

[LionHeart]

Clay pots and grass.

Didn't they bust that myth on Mythbusters? The best they got was a low-frequency "woo" or something like that, if that.

Yes, they did. I remember that episode.

Still, they got to play with a really cool old Phonograph, and a gob-load of other neat gadgets too. Actually, that just describes Mythbusters in general, doesn't it?

Sure does.

[Faerie Alex]

Still, they got to play with a really cool old Phonograph, and a gob-load of other neat gadgets too. Actually, that just describes Mythbusters in general, doesn't it?

Sure does.

And explosions. Don't forget the explosions.