[comic] Gabriel, pg.6 [02-08-'10]

[Tapewolf]

That was kind of fun.  The rant was excellent.  How did you come up with it?

[WhiteFox]

That was kind of fun.  The rant was excellent.  How did you come up with it?

Wrote it myself. I set up a situation that would let me establish something about Jade (at the same time introducing Emmie's character as well, and establishing something about Theonor too... but that's a pretty subtle element); then I just put myself in Jades shoes and started writing.

The majority of the rant was written beforehand. If I'm planning conversation that will span several panels, I always draft out a script to sort out the flow. Her final comments I had in mind, but didn't actually write till I was laying out the text on the page, which is the last step of the comic. I'm not afraid to change the script as I go. Sometimes my estimate for how much area the text will need is really off, and other times I just come up with a better idea then what I had in mind.

An earlier version I was thinking of went like this:
Panel 5, Jade: "So maybe it's a good thing I'm not from around here."
Panel 6, Jade: "But then... they do call Zinvith  the 'City of Demons', don't they?"

But I realized that I wanted to leave panel 6 wordless.  At the same time, I didn't want to imply that Zinvith was the sort of place Jade had grew up in; I doubt you're going to get your throat ripped out in broad daylight there, and Jade didn't grow up in a large city. Plus, the implication that Jade might rip Emmie a new one after all was kind of weak.

I was going to have her say "...do something Theonor might appreciate." but then I figured that Jade would know for certain that Theo wouldn't appreciate it. I think this version is better anyway, since it's a lot more intimidating to suggest that everyone would be glad to see Emeliné dead, and this wording does a better job of referencing the earlier text, where Jade describes the environment she grew up in.

And it's nice to see Jade is at least relaxed enough to settle down and enjoy her tea. Maybe.

Jade isn't uncivilized, per se... she's just from a different sort of civilization. Besides... she likes tea.

And Jade wins the award for best rant of the strip so far.

Glad you're enjoying the show. It was fun to write.

[LionHeart]

I'm getting "server not found" messages when I try to see the strip. Any idea what's going on?

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

I'm getting "server not found" messages when I try to see the strip. Any idea what's going on?

Works fine for me. Want to try again?

[LionHeart]

Ah. Now it's come up.

I like Theo's reply to her at the end. Nice.

And Emeliné's expression in the panel before - she has just realised that she's gotten in way over her head. Not so much bitten off more than she can chew, but bitten into something that could chew her up and spit her out without a second thought.

[techmaster-glitch]

Once again, it has taken me far to long to get around to commenting...

Jade definitely has an excellent look of insane fury on her face when she's getting fired up (pun intended ). She really looks ready to cut loose right there.

Also, I love Theo's completely nonchalant to Emeline's question. He's just "Yup, that's Jade" to her little display there. Although, I am starting to wonder, aside from being the only two people (if I remember correctly) in that "empire building" class, how Emeline and Theo actually became friends (as opposed to just classmates/acquaintances)...


EDIT: Oh, and uh, just noticed this... is Emeline missing her headwings in panel 4?

[WhiteFox]

Also, I love Theo's completely nonchalant to Emeline's question. He's just "Yup, that's Jade" to her little display there.

I like to think that Theo made that comment unaware of the exchange between the two (He's indoors at the moment). It's funnier that way, but it also means that he's being truthful about it. He really does like her for it.

Although, I am starting to wonder, aside from being the only two people (if I remember correctly) in that "empire building" class, how Emeline and Theo actually became friends...

Heh... I love it when people pick up the details. There were ten to begin with, but that number has diminished somewhat.

Originally, I was going to bring Emeline in with Jade sitting at the cafe wearing the sport top and jeans, with the opening comment, "Are those mine?" Followed by the explanation that Emmie was Theo's rommie at SAIA, and that she had left them (Which is why Theo had some girls clothing to give Jade in the first place.). Followed by Theo trying to convince Jade that there nothing between him and Emmie, with Emmie making comments that didn't help the situation.

In the end, I scrubbed that version of the storyline because the situation was too cliche. Also, Jade would have to have been wearing the jeans and sport top outfit. Which meant her current robe wouldn't show up until much later and I felt that the fewer the costume changes, the better. So Jade got a new outfit with her makeover, and Emeline came in with a much different angle of attack.

All the above is still true, actually, but the reason Theo categorizes Emeline as a friend is a concept I'm going to be developing in future plotlines, and is much more involved then just "they were roomies."

EDIT: Oh, and uh, just noticed this... is Emeline missing her headwings in panel 4?

Thanks for the heads-up. *Rimshot*



Well, pg. #50 might be delayed somewhat. The first reason being that I want to do some additional line work, and that means going back to the paper copy. Which means I'll have to scan it again, and some of the coloring I've done so far might have to be reworked.

The other reason being that a friend of mine mentioned a possibility of some paid work doing knot work designs, and I've been trying to get some portfolio material together. Normally, this wouldn't delay my once a week update schedule, but my mind seems to run on rails. Once it starts going in one direction, it's bloody hard to switch gears. So I haven't been able to focus on any other work at all.

Anyway... here's some of the drafts I came up with. Most of these are based on modified triquertas:

This is a triquerta. Also referred to as a Trinity Knot.

Double-Lined triquerta. A huge pain in the butt to do, but cool. I'd probably add color to something like this, since the image is hard to read.

A border made of modified triquertas. This is the simplest way to ink knot-work, which is why I use it when I'm experimenting.

A properly lined triquerta border. To either side are the planning stages in pencil.

A quatrefoil. This one was laid out entirely with a straightedge and a compass, which made the planning stage very technically precise. Too bad my inks messed it all up.

[EDIT]Whoop, forgot one:

Circular border of modified triquertas.

[Lysander]

Nice. Some of that is tattoo quality stuff. I especially like the triquerta.   

[WhiteFox]

DSOF #50

All kinds of not happy with everything. For all the time I spent talking about improving the backgrounds, I don't think it would have mattered much. Just too damned many speech bubbles. I thought about splitting this conversation up into two pages, but I really couldn't make the script work.

I did take the time to redraw a panel, and add another one to smooth out the transitions. Still, panel 3 is a mess, in terms of inks, and redrawing it twice garnered no better results. I'm starting to miss the days where I accidently forgot details like wings and tails. It made everything so much easier.

There are all kinds of problems with this page. At this point I have to just post it, try to make the next page better, and hope I can stop screaming in frustration sometime this week.

Gah. I hate feeling like I let people down with my stupid crap.

[ChaosMageX]

I like panel 5 the most.  That look on Emmie's face is priceless.

Also, a "People's Cultural Revolution"?  Is that supposed to be Emmie's own version of socialism?

[SpottedKitty]

Also, a "People's Cultural Revolution"?  Is that supposed to be Emmie's own version of socialism?

Sounds like her class project. One that's going up in flames figuratively, instead of literally like the others. Practical exercises in this particular subject are certainly... different.   

[Turnsky]

just pointing out, your speech bubbles are very inconsistent in how they're shaped, ellipses, rounded rectangles, then right-angled rectangles. it might actually be wise to have a set shape for dialog, narration, etc.

[Corgatha Taldorthar]

Minor comment about etymology.


I doubt they'd call them the "humanities" on a Furrae world where the very existance of humans outside mythology is something that seems in debate.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

I doubt they'd call them the "humanities" on a Furrae world where the very existance of humans outside mythology is something that seems in debate.

True, but since the comic is drawn for human readers, using some communal terms is acceptable, if not required. Spending all your time working up a whole new etymology is going to be neat and all, but is unlikely to keep the buffer full. Sometimes it's better to just let it slide and move on... ;-]

[WhiteFox]

I doubt they'd call them the "humanities" on a Furrae world where the very existance of humans outside mythology is something that seems in debate.

True, but since the comic is drawn for human readers, using some communal terms is acceptable, if not required. Spending all your time working up a whole new etymology is going to be neat and all, but is unlikely to keep the buffer full. Sometimes it's better to just let it slide and move on... ;-]

A similar thought had occurred to me after I put the "Inhuman Resources" sign on Maltorius' door.

"The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense." -Tom Clancy

just pointing out, your speech bubbles are very inconsistent in how they're shaped, ellipses, rounded rectangles, then right-angled rectangles. it might actually be wise to have a set shape for dialog, narration, etc.

I fully agree with you on that. I'm still experimenting with ways of drawing speech balloons. I'm going to have to move that up on my list of priorities.

The sharp cornered rectangles are total mistake on my part, however. Grr.

[Turnsky]

another point of contention, i know her boobs are supposed to be of unreal dimension, but the nipples are somewhat out of place with the rest of the comic, and technically speaking, on an anthro anything? nipples shouldn't be anywhere near that prominent... nor that large.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/abpgaleria/344172878/sizes/o/ <--- not remotely worksafe, but it should give you the right idea.

[WhiteFox]

another point of contention, i know her boobs are supposed to be of unreal dimension, but the nipples are somewhat out of place with the rest of the comic, and technically speaking, on an anthro anything? nipples shouldn't be anywhere near that prominent... nor that large.

When I designed the character I figured that if she were going for maximum effect... and if she were completely shameless, which she is... she'd probably exaggerate her nipples to make them blatantly obvious, in addition to plumping up her bust to absurediculous proportions.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/abpgaleria/344172878/sizes/o/ <--- not remotely worksafe, but it should give you the right idea.

I've seen that guide before, and it is a very good guide, but those look too "anime" for me. Usually I'll dig up a few real life images of a bust that resembles the shape and size I have in mind for a character, and work with that.

I do try to stay aware of the physics though (IE; Step 3)... I wish I knew how well I was doing in that respect.

[PS] If anyone's wondering why the comic wasn't up last Friday, Real Life threw me for a loop. What's new.

[SpottedKitty]

if she were going for maximum effect... and if she were completely shameless, which she is...

Presumably Emmie is another student heading towards needing a word or two of advice from Fa'lina...

[Turnsky]

When I designed the character I figured that if she were going for maximum effect... and if she were completely shameless, which she is... she'd probably exaggerate her nipples to make them blatantly obvious, in addition to plumping up her bust to absurediculous proportions.

even so, it does seem completely unnecessary for there to be suddenly nipples, overall, she just looks cold. 

[WhiteFox]

Kitty: Just maybe.

Turn: Maybe, but cold perky nipples are smexay.

This isn't the first time nipples have appeared in the comic. They havn't shown up in any other of Jade's nude scenes because... well... there ended up being more of them then I expected (mostly to reduce the number of costume changes), and I got scared, to be honest. In retrospect, I don't think I should have chickened out.

I don't want to belabor the point, but it's my comic and my characters. If I want nipples on them, I'll give them nipples.

You have a point, though. I do need to be consistent with details like this, and I'll have to watch out for it in the future.

[WhiteFox]

DSOF #51 Certainty.

Text. Is a pain. In the butt. I tried to arrange the balloons into three columns in the first panel, but I don't know if it worked.

BG's still occupying my attention.

I did some studies on wings this weekend, so expect visual changes. Theo's wings in panel 3 are horrid, but the rest aren't bad. I always thought of him as having small, triangular wings, but I never seem to draw them right. Emmie's wings look pretty good in panel one there, too bad they're so obscured.

Also, posted a little Portrait of Felix @ FA.

Anyway. Comments, feedback, and critique appreciated.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

... When you're making the balloons, accepted convention is to have separate strings for each speaker. This means each speaker has a definitive black line between their balloons and the other speakers. I note you've coloured them, here, but convention works otherwise.

You did this in the middle string on the first panel, but then it seemed to slip in the third one, come back in the second panel, then slip again in the last panel.

And you're still alternating between oval and square balloons; that's less of a concern, more of a minor stylistic choice, but is mildly jarring to read; IME, square balloons are used for narrator type activity, and are generally not joined. But that's not a big deal, more of a minor nitpick; it's particularly noticeable in the final panel, however.

In panel 2, Emeline appears unbalanced, something that is not the case in the other two images (merely saggy, which suggests she needs a talk from Fa'Lina about how to make big look good, but I digress). Her left nipple is lower than her right - since it's in the crook of her arm, if anything it should be higher than the other one.

Other than that, I note you've been putting more detail into the characters themselves, and your lines are getting more consistent across multiple panels (eg, Theo's ears in panels 1 and 3), so you're making some progress there. Keep it up! ;-]

[Tapewolf]

The last panel has Emeline saying Theo's line.  Also, there's a typo in Theo's round bubble.
Looking good, though.  I await the next one with interest.

[WhiteFox]

...This means each speaker has a definitive black line between their balloons and the other speakers.

The last panel has Emeline saying Theo's line.

There's supposed to be definitive lines, as per the middle column of panel one. I must have screwed up the lining at some point.

And you're still alternating between oval and square balloons; that's less of a concern, more of a minor stylistic choice, but is mildly jarring to read...

It's a pretty simple equation, actually. Square balloons are easier for me to draw, and to arrange the text in them. I'm trying to use round bubbles more and more. Little ones are simple, but the big ones are... uncooperative.

I've always favored results over style. If it's jarring to read, I'm doing something about it.

In panel 2, Emeline appears unbalanced, something that is not the case in the other two images. Her left nipple is lower than her right - since it's in the crook of her arm, if anything it should be higher than the other one.

... Huh. The nipples are actually level (I checked in Photoshop, with a guideline), so I'm not sure what's going on there. I didn't intend for her arm to look like it was supporting her bust, only that it was tucked under them. The taper of the forearm might be making one look bigger then the other, I guess.

Her bewbies are actually supposed to look just a bit saggy, but only in order to imply sheer weight. I might have to rethink how I draw them.

Other than that, I note you've been putting more detail into the characters themselves, and your lines are getting more consistent across multiple panels (eg, Theo's ears in panels 1 and 3), so you're making some progress there. Keep it up! ;-]

Yay, progress! I've been trying to spend more time refining the lining, and proofing things like tails and ears and wings, so I'm glad it's noticeable.

I await the next one with interest.

Me too. 

[Tapewolf]

There's supposed to be definitive lines, as per the middle column of panel one. I must have screwed up the lining at some point.

The main problem is that the speech bubble for Theo is pointing directly at her.  If you lengthen the line or move the speech bubble closer to him will work better.

It's made worse by what he's saying: "I have a thing in the afternoon.  Afterwards?" ...if taken as Em's speech, it sounds like she's trying to hit on him again, especially when the bottom one says "sure." - if you get confused by the second bubble it looks like he's agreed to a liason with her.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

And you're still alternating between oval and square balloons; that's less of a concern, more of a minor stylistic choice, but is mildly jarring to read...

It's a pretty simple equation, actually. Square balloons are easier for me to draw, and to arrange the text in them. I'm trying to use round bubbles more and more. Little ones are simple, but the big ones are... uncooperative.

I've always favored results over style. If it's jarring to read, I'm doing something about it.

Mildly jarring. It's better than it was. Get the lines between the bubbles sorted, and it might be small enough to go unnoticed.

In panel 2, Emeline appears unbalanced, something that is not the case in the other two images. Her left nipple is lower than her right - since it's in the crook of her arm, if anything it should be higher than the other one.

... Huh. The nipples are actually level (I checked in Photoshop, with a guideline), so I'm not sure what's going on there. I didn't intend for her arm to look like it was supporting her bust, only that it was tucked under them. The taper of the forearm might be making one look bigger then the other, I guess.

Her bewbies are actually supposed to look just a bit saggy, but only in order to imply sheer weight. I might have to rethink how I draw them.

It's not that they look bigger - her left is pointing down. And if you get someone to stand in that position for you, you'll see that it's not possible to...

Scuse me. *goes and gets his wife to stand in that position*

Yeah. Unless the lady in question has extremely long upper arms (and the visible upper arm suggests rather the reverse, since her elbow is higher than her nipple), her arm across her lower chest is going to press the breast upwards, a little - unless they're a lot perkier and/or smaller than you've drawn. And it's not the size of the forearm that makes the difference; it's the breasts that are different. (I tried putting my arm in the same place, and it seemed likely to me that the breasts would be pushed up; testing with my wife showed I was wrong, but only just; and that's for her, since she's not built like Emeline. Mind you, is anyone? ;-] ) That would change the shape of the underside of the breast a little, and moves the nipple around a bit - mostly changing the direction it points in, due to the support nullifying gravity pulling on the skin on one side, and the balancing forces of the cloth around it, etc.

I think, despite the guideline, it's not that they're not level - it's that they shouldn't be. If they were, she'd have to have all the vanishing points pointing off to the same place, and she's not. The breasts stand out because they're horizontal, and her left should be maybe 5-10 degrees higher than the right, in order to vanish off to the right point. She's not facing the camera, she's facing to the right, so there's some change needed there.

Does that make sense? I'm not sure what the right arty words are for what I'm trying to say, here.

As for sagginess, I would expect, if they're fake, for them to be perkier than would normally be possible. But that's just me; mostly, I'm merely going with what you've drawn already...

[Turnsky]

Something like this, Box?

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Er, yes. Although, to be scrupulously fair, the body you've drawn is rather heavier-set than Emeline. The torso and frame, I mean.

And, well, you didn't draw the nipples on the one with the arm underneath, and she's facing the other way to Panel 2. If we're being picky and all. ;-]

But yes, aspersions aside, that is something like what I meant. Thank you for taking the time to draw it.

[WhiteFox]

I'm not sure what the right arty words are for what I'm trying to say, here.

You know... feedback doesn't always need to be technical. Most of the technical stuff I can look up in guides and reference books, or I can google for reference images, or I can look at other peoples work and see what they do. What I can't do is take a look at my own art, and judge what's working and what isn't. I'm too close to it, so I can't see the forrest for the trees. So, even just hearing that something looks off is very useful.

Something like this, Box?

Conversely, having someone who can explain it does make things a lot easier to think about. (I love your sketching, by the way. Every line is really expressive.)

All this discussion has all been very constructive for me. Seriously... this has been entirely awesome, you guys.



You're right about one thing, boxy. I intended the lower arm in panel 2 to be just resting under the bust, not actually pushing it up, but her bicep would have to be about 50% longer then it should be to do that. Also, if her bust overlaps her arms when seen from the front, it would be impossible for the raised arm *not* to push her breast aside. I must have been lazy when I figured out the pose.

I did some sketching this afternoon. About three pages, but I could use feeback on these two in particular:

Pinup [NSFW: Nudity]
The biceps length thing is really noticeable. I think the raised arm-and-boob came out pretty well, though. I think the nip on the right should be higher, though, since she has her back arched and the view has a bit of up shot to it.

Profile[NSFW: Nudity]
This is how I imagine Emmie's breasts ought to be shaped, compared to Turn's sketchs. The top has a gentle slope and the underside is roundly curved, and the majority of the mass is below the armpit.

I don't like to draw breasts as hemispheres, nor do I like to place them high on the chest. I see a lot of artists do that, and it drives me up the wall: it's like they're floating. As I understand it, they should only look like that if the figure is wearing a pushup bra, or corset. Am I wrong on this?

On the other hand, I'm probably wrong about how the nipple is placed, as it should sit a little higher up on the chest, and point more upward.

(The G.B.B.T. seems to agree with both points.)

([Edit:] I googled around for about 20 seconds and managed to find this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hyiq9suWWQ&; [NSFW] Mature Themes and Cartoon Nudity
Worth consideration.)

Anyway... I ought to do some sketching to practice drawing boobs when they're being pushed around.



Errata:

And if you get someone to stand in that position for you, you'll see that it's not possible to...

Scuse me. *goes and gets his wife to stand in that position*

Yeah.

That had to be the biggest WTF moment I've had on this board.

Er, yes. Although, to be scrupulously fair, the body you've drawn is rather heavier-set than Emeline.

Since you mentioned it... as far as I can make out Emelinés waistline is almost equal to her hat size. I wonder if it's ever noticeable, since her bust blocks the view from the front and her wings usually block the view from behind.

As for sagginess, I would expect, if they're fake, for them to be perkier than would normally be possible.

I could say more on this, but it's something that I wanted to bring up further on in the comic. For what it's worth; truth is beauty, and what is truthful is not always what is factual.

And to close;
"Our eyes instinctively seek out breasts from the moment we enter the world. This does not make them any easier to draw."
- Sarah Simblet, Anatomy for the Artist

[techmaster-glitch]

There's not really much here I can comment on, except for this little tidbit;

I don't like to draw breasts as hemispheres, nor do I like to place them high on the chest. I see a lot of artists do that, and it drives me up the wall: it's like they're floating. As I understand it, they should only look like that if the figure is wearing a pushup bra, or corset. Am I wrong on this?

I'd say that's an artistic license + attraction thing. They are more prominent/noticeable and therefore more "desireable" if they are high up (and, if closely inspected, seem as if they defy gravity. I'd say that's simply a side-effect.)

At least, that's the way it is to me. I can't say I'm speaking for anyone else...