12/03/07 [DMFA #849] - Worry's for Another Day

[Aisha deCabre]

BTW, this is the third time in the two threads about this subject that someone has asserted that English is oh so hard to learn. Where did you get that idea? English is easy: no inflections. Ever.

It's the vocabulary...which makes it hard to learn any language.  It's ultra-extensive, especially in America where there is so much slang.  Proper English may be easy to learn because for example the verbs aren't conjugated different ways.  There's one word for many meanings and vice-versa, which also somewhat makes it hard to understand.  One would have to spend a -lot- of time in America before they learn every term we use, and even then as the rant more or less shows, there are many different ways to say things in English depending on where you are.  Just like Spanish; Mexico vs. say, Ecuador.  It can also depend on the accent.

Guess it depends on where one learns it though.

[Janus Whitefurr]

*Charline LOVES Dunecat!*  Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!  I want one!  *stuffs a cat into a tube... stuff stuff stuff SQUISH.. *   I broke my Dunecat. 

*Charles knows that the Master Language will be his own!*  Soon the world will speak only Piney!   

My Dunecat has the spice eyes.

I'm not sure where the quote originated, but I have a shirt somewhere in my cupboard that has "English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleyways, knocks them over the head, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar."

I have nothing to add to the discussion otherwise.

[Zina]

BTW, this is the third time in the two threads about this subject that someone has asserted that English is oh so hard to learn. Where did you get that idea? English is easy: no inflections. Ever.

It's the vocabulary...which makes it hard to learn any language.  It's ultra-extensive, especially in America where there is so much slang.  Proper English may be easy to learn because for example the verbs aren't conjugated different ways.  There's one word for many meanings and vice-versa, which also somewhat makes it hard to understand.  One would have to spend a -lot- of time in America before they learn every term we use, and even then as the rant more or less shows, there are many different ways to say things in English depending on where you are.  Just like Spanish; Mexico vs. say, Ecuador.  It can also depend on the accent.

Guess it depends on where one learns it though.

Not only that, but we are constantly adding new slang on a regular basis, and the slang varies from area to area. Sometimes we can barely understand each other.
There's also the delightful fact that conversational English is so different from written English. We butcher our own language and sometimes will completely disregard any and all grammatical rules. It can become extremely difficult and frustrating for a non-native to follow along.
At least, that's how we Americans roll.

[BlueTiger]

I know, I would love to be able to use this pic in RL:

[Kenji]

Perhaps Americans just keep the language on its toes to confuse anyone trying to fit in.

[Paul]

All languages have slang and dialects and double meanings and differences between written and spoken language and assorted other tricky bits. Yet learning them is easy - children do it! 

[Rafe]

It's really all the exceptions to the rules that make English confusing.  Plurals, for example - most words, you just add an "s", but some get an "en" (ox - oxen) some get an "ren" (child - children), some get nothing (cannon - cannon, deer - deer).

Then there are weird pronounciation rules:  "gh" can sound like "f"  (laugh), "o" can sound like "i" (women), "ti" can cound like "sh" (action).  I think it was Oscar Wilde who said in English you could spell "fish" ghoti.

[LoneHowler]

I remember when they introduced the Canadian two dollar coin the government wanted to call it the Ducat, but the public "coined" it the Twonie which is a bastardization of the Loonie the one dollar coin so called because of the loon (bird) on the tails side of the coin, which was also name due to public popularity because we thought having coin dollars was silly. sometimes it is the people who name the object not the government  personally I wanted to name it doubloons because it was a double loonie

[Dannysaysnoo]

The UK has it right with its coin terms. we have none.

[Tapewolf]

The UK has it right with its coin terms. we have none.

What about 'quid'?

**EDIT**
OK, I can't think of any specific to coins themselves, but there are a lot of slang terms for the currency.

[Dannysaysnoo]

**EDIT**
OK, I can't think of any specific to coins themselves, but there are a lot of slang terms for the currency.

Quid, Bar, Squid. Just like Buck, dollar and such.

[Alondro]

Japanese is really tricky too.  It has borrowed from quite a few other languages.  For instance, no one who knows modern Japanese can even read the writing carved into the base of the 200 year-old samurai sword I have.  The characters changed that much!

[Netrogo]

On a side note. Amber was saying that the fraggle rock dolls are expensive and such nowadays, well LIES!!!

[AnizInDisguise]

I want a dunecat. 

[Naldru]

Go to Fraggle Rock

As far as using the same words globally, we can't even get Microsoft to use terms that have already become established in the computer science field.

[Attic Rat]

Go to Fraggle Rock

As far as using the same words globally, we can't even get Microsoft to use terms that have already become established in the computer science field.

We'll be just fine, so long as we remember that "kilo" means 1024.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

... unless it means 1000.

[Chaos]

A. I think Fluffy got hit by a D.S.

While I can see where Amber is comming from, I think it hasn't been fully explored. While New terms for New things pop up all around the place, you have to give credit to how language evolves. I think there needs to be a distiction between new words via creation, or new words via slang

e.g. The couriel thing (French E-mail) butgs me, cause that was an atrificial move to translate a common term into French.

However, "Cell Phone" is a different situation. Cell Phone originally stood for Cellular Phone. Now if a language has words for Cellular and Phone, I do not expect them to use the term "Cellular Phone". And if they shorten the phrase in there own language, It's cool by me. I give credit for the evolution of slang, and if that happens, more power to them.

If a new word is created just for a new thing, e.g. computer, or iPod, then other languaged should try to conform, as there is no translation.

Language should be natural, not artificial, else we come to 1984's Doublespeak.

This thread is pro-pro-party-like!!!!

[Paul]

While I can see where Amber is comming from, I think it hasn't been fully explored. While New terms for New things pop up all around the place, you have to give credit to how language evolves. I think there needs to be a distiction between new words via creation, or new words via slang

e.g. The couriel thing (French E-mail) butgs me, cause that was an atrificial move to translate a common term into French.

Uh what? "Email" is only common in English. All languages have words for "mail" already - so you stick an abbreviation of "electronic" in front or behind, and bingo: email, epost, ebrev, courriel, corrio-e, etc.

I'm not sure what you mean by "an artificial move to translate". All new words are, strictly speaking, artificial. You can introduce a word or a term, but whether it catches on is entirely up to people in general. You can't force a word through if people don't like it.

If a new word is created just for a new thing, e.g. computer, or iPod, then other languaged should try to conform, as there is no translation.

There are fewer entirely new words created than people seem to think. "Computer" is derived from "compute" - to calculate - a word that all languages already have their own versions of. So of course they'd use those. iPod is a new word, but it's also brand name, and brand names never get translated.

[Naldru]

There are fewer entirely new words created than people seem to think. "Computer" is derived from "compute" - to calculate - a word that all languages already have their own versions of. So of course they'd use those. iPod is a new word, but it's also brand name, and brand names never get translated.

My understanding is that a hundred years ago, a computer was a person who you sat down in a room and did arithmetic all day.  Before electronic computers were invented, there was a chemist who had an uncle who loved to do arithmetic.  His research involved massive amounts of calculations, so once a week he would visit his uncle and drop off the latest set of problems to be worked out.  I was told that it gave him a giant advantage over the other scientists of the period.

The term torpedo is actually a shortened form of the term locomotive torpedo.  A torpedo meant an explosive device, so a locomotive torpedo was an explosive device that propelled itself.  The term destroyer is actually short for torpedo boat destroyer, a vessel that was designed to protect the fleet against small fast craft that would rush in and fire locomotive torpedoes at the capital ships.

The terms hood and bonnet both refer to a covering for the head.  They both cover the engine at the "head" of the car.

A boot is actually a leather covering.  The old stagecoaches had a space at the back where you could store luggage and it was covered by a large piece of leather.  For this reason, the luggage compartment was called the boot.  Some early cars had a trunk (the kind people used for shipping things) strapped down to the back of the car for storage.  That is the source of the two words for the storage area in a car.

The reason that the British called vacuum tubes valves was that they controlled the flow of electricity in a circuit like a valve in a water pipe controls the flow of water.  In web servers, a valve refers to a piece of software that controls the flow of information between two software components,  In computer technology a pipe is a mechanism for transferring data between two software components in the same way that a water pipe carries water.

What I'm saying is that in many cases, people used existing words when new products were developed.  There were often multiple words that could be used, and it was only natural that people in geographically separated areas would settle on different words.

[Tapewolf]

The reason that the British called vacuum tubes valves was that they controlled the flow of electricity in a circuit like a valve in a water pipe controls the flow of water.

We still do 

The full term was 'thermionic valve' or 'electron valve', but it was shortened to just 'valve'.
IIRC the Russian term means 'lamp' or 'light', so like the US they named it after what it looks like, while the British named it after what does.

IIRC the German term for 'light bulb' means 'pear', which is kind of cute.  I wish we'd done that.

**EDIT**

And the use of the term 'computer' meaning a person continued until the 50s, as I recall, when electronic and electromechanical computers started to become more common.  Something to bear in mind when reading classic SF.

[Alondro]

The reason that the British called vacuum tubes valves was that they controlled the flow of electricity in a circuit like a valve in a water pipe controls the flow of water.

We still do 

Dang crazy Brits!   With yer 'aluminium' and 'chips'!  It's FRENCH FRIES, goddammit!>

*going ballistic over nothing is fun*   

[Tapewolf]

Dang crazy Brits!   With yer 'aluminium' and 'chips'!  It's FRENCH FRIES, goddammit!>

French Fries are little tiny slivers of stringy potato.  (Or worse, something vaguely resembling potato).  Chips are about the size of your little finger.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Or, if you're in NZ, they're what the English call "crisps" as well. Just for bonus confusion. ;-]

[Dannysaysnoo]

Whats weird is that on your chips, most have slat and vinegar, and on your crisps/chips, you can have a salt and vinegar flavor.