Beowulf

[Omega]

Lust is the desire to have sex. After the orgasm it's gone and (hopefully) the love remains. If public defines a word, then the majority rules and you lose. The language lives a life of it's own and no person is strong enough to tell what is right language and what is not. If I'm confusing love with lust, then I'm the same as everyone else, which proves my point.


You're saying that lust = emotion and love = "deliberate action". No deliberate action is made without an emotion, therefore, love is based on lust. You are using the word 'love' as an verb, right? No wonder we can't understand each other.

[Fuyudenki]

erm... proof that sanity is not one of Raist's strong points(and thus, he should fit right in here) removed.

Have a dancing Kirby.

[bill]

Beowulf is a shitty movie.

[Omega]

Raisty, there's nothing wrong with hate, as long as you let other feel hate too. The mindless rage and wrath with out any meaning is the one that you want to avoid. If you're too kind the people will step over you.

[Fuyudenki]

but the mindless rage and wrath is what's so tempting.

It just feels good.  I can't think of anything else that could ever feel so good as the intoxicating feeling that you could single-handedly crush the entire human race.

except maybe freefall.

[Alondro]

but the mindless rage and wrath is what's so tempting.

It just feels good.  I can't think of anything else that could ever feel so good as the intoxicating feeling that you could single-handedly crush the entire human race.

And that is why I'm a scientist.   

[Dannysaysnoo]

but the mindless rage and wrath is what's so tempting.

It just feels good.  I can't think of anything else that could ever feel so good as the intoxicating feeling that you could single-handedly crush the entire human race.

And that is why I'm a scientist.   

Yes, let's see you crush all of humankind by measuring how long this tablet takes to dissipate acid

[Fuyudenki]

Alondro is a chemical biologist.  He doesn't time acid and tablets, he examines the effects of neurotoxin on lab rats.

How do you think he finds out what effect neurotoxin has on lab rats?

All in all, Alondro's a pretty cool guy, actually.

[Alondro]

We use mice, not rats.   

Actually, I'll be the one getting the toxin this weekend.  To get badly needed money for expenses my salary cannot cover, and for extra projects to get my animation company moving, I've begun volunteering for paid clinical studies! 

This is the first one.  I'll be in the hospital from Saturday night to Tuesday afternoon, getting an tiny injection of highly dilute lipopolysaccharide (LPS, bacterial endotoxin), to see what effect inflammation has on cytokine release from fat cells.  It's part of a theory that inflammation is a major pathological factor in metabolic syndrome and type 2 diabetes.

I'll feel like I have the flu for about a day from the LPS effects.

They'll be studying the fat cells by biopsying my butt... twice.  And I have to have IVs in both arms for nearly the whole time... I'm still trying to get over that incredible fear of needles.  I can make myself do it more easily now, but it still always hurts like hell.  My heart's already going faster just thinking about that little tube worming its way into my vein.

But, for these three days of terror and pain, I get $1100!   

However, it's not nearly enough to cover all my needs.  I have to volunteer for at least 5 more ~$1000 studies, or find a really painful one that pays ~$5000.

So much pain... but no other option.   

[Omega]

Uuuuhhh.... Do you know what your health insurance is going to like about this? The what little I know about lipoplysaccharides isnt' that very nice. I mean, that's the stuff that Gramm-negative bacters spit out, right?

[superluser]

HOLY CRAP!  I just came back from Beowulf, and

YOU WILL NOT BELIEVE HOW EXTRAORDINARILY BAD IT WAS.

Spoilers for the poem and the movie follow.

First off, if you don't believe me, ask yourself the following: Was Grendel the son of Hrothgar?  Was the dragon the son of Beowulf and Grendel's Mother?  Well, that's true in the movie.

It's been a long while since I read Beowulf, and I read the verse translation, so maybe I missed something, so here's my summary of the poem:

Hrothgar builds a hall called Heorot, and Grendel starts to attack it, killing 30 men a night.  This goes on for 12 years.  Beowulf, owing a blood debt to Hrothgar, comes to defeat the monster.  Unferth taunts Beowulf, and Beowulf recounts noble stories of his feats.  Unferth is not impressed.  Beowulf waits for Grendel, alone and unarmed.  We never do find out what Grendel looks like, but we do know that he has a massive arm and that his name means ``grinder.''  Beowulf defeats Grendel, and shows Grendel's arm as a trophy.

Then, Grendel's mother gets mad, and attacks Heorot.  Unferth was impressed by Beowulf's defeat of Grendel, so he gives Beowulf a sword, called Hrunting, which shows that he has some honor in him.

Beowulf swims to Grendel's mother, only to discover that the sword won't work on her (possibly because she and Grendel were both descendants of Cain), thus making it just dead weight.  He finds another sword down there and kills her with it.

Then Beowulf goes back to his own kingdom and reigns there in peace until someone steals something from a barrow and awakens a dragon.  Beowulf fights the dragon one-on-one with Wiglaf nearby.  Beowulf gets into trouble and asks Wiglaf for help.  Beowulf, the man who always fought alone, is calling for help.  Wiglaf's help allows Beowulf to defeat the dragon, but he sustains a fatal wound in the process.

Is that a good summary?

So why is it that they've replaced noble Beowulf with Ash from Housewares? (``Are all Geats loud-mouthed braggarts?''  ``Just me, baby.  Just me.'')  Every woman in the film wants to have sex with him, and Hrothgar is turned into a hedonistic buffoon.

Beowulf waits for Grendel *with his men* and gratuitously naked.  When Beowulf gets into a tight spot, Wiglaf helps him out.  Hear that?  It's the entire concept of Beowulf the hero getting thrown out the window.  Grendel's mother tries to seduce Beowulf and attacks.  For some reason, Beowulf succumbs to Grendel's mother's promises that she'll make him king of Heorot, despite the fact that he's virtually assured of becoming a king when he goes home.

Hrothgar senses that Beowulf didn't kill Grendel's mother, so he tells Beowulf that Grendel was Hrothgar's son, bequeaths his kingdom to Beowulf, and commits suicide.

Then, years later, a dragon attacks Heorot.  Turns out that the dragon is the son of Beowulf and Grendel's mother.  Also, it's named Smaug and has a weak point in between two of its scales.  Beowulf defeats the dragon by himself and dies because he hacked his own shoulder off.

I think this is the worst adaptation I've ever seen.

[Angel]

(gets on her knees with her palms facing the sky and her eyes cast to heaven) AMEN, brother!

I saw it on Sunday, and I was amazed at the amount of CRAP it was! I don't care if I pissed off my dad, every twenty seconds I had to whisper, "That's not what happened!" I mean, seriously!

Grendel was the biggest disappointment ever. They took the one truly evil monster in the whole story, and made him a complete crybaby! Oh, and by the way? Grendel's mom only was supposed to kill ONE person (Aeschere). NOT every freaking Geat in Heorot! In fact, in the book. she was a bit of a coward! And Hrothgar never committed suicide. After Beowulf killed (that's right - KILLED) Grendel's mom, he and Hrothgar never saw each other again. Beowulf became ruler of Geatland after Hygelac and his sons died. In fact, after Hygelac died, Beowulf was offered kingship, but he turned it down. Also, Freawaru wasn't Beowulf's plaything. She was Hrothgar's daughter. Yeah. NOT CREEPY.

The only thing they got right was Unferth. And he's not even the most important character.

I don't care if they DID feature a nod to Tolkien's love of the story (thief steals a cup and wakes up a dragon - ring any bells?), or if they DID have Anthony Hopkins and Robin Wright Penn. This movie has just guaranteed that everyone who saw this first will now hate the book.

[/rant]

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

He. "based on" must me "written by someone who once heard of the original, but never read it"...

[superluser]

The only thing they got right was Unferth. And he's not even the most important character.

I dunno.  You could make a very strong case that he's the most interesting character, far more complex than Beowulf, and probably more complex than Wiglaf (I'd have to reread it, because I didn't pay much attention to Wiglaf).

I can also deal with the concept of Grendel's mother killing a lot of people.

I, however, didn't like the fact that they gave the dragon a Smaug-like weak point, either.

I'm trying to decide if it's worth it to get a few people together and see it at the dollar theater so that we can heckle it all the way through.

Edit: Also, about Beowulf being tempted by Grendel's mother's promises of making him a king...

Beowulf would have known that he was virtually assured of being offered kingship uopn returning home--he killed a monster who was responsible for the deaths of 131,400 men.  You know what you get for that?  You get to be king.

[Brunhidden]

i saw it, but was unable to post until now due to an internet conniption.

both me and my wife agree it was very close to being a good movie, which is surprising because she is an expert on Nordic culture and i am an expert on mythology.

what puzzled me is how so many things were both incredibly accurate and at the same time wrong. for instance Grendel shown here is very much closer to the Scandinavian troll then to the 'child of kain' that the Christian skew on the story describes him as, including limited magical powers. if you took Grendel and removed everything that reminded you of gollum from PJ's LOTR movies you would be left with an accurate Scandinavian troll.

Fun fact- the name Grendel means 'the grinder', there have been arguments over if this means 'grinder of bone' referring to the practice of grinding bones to make flour, or if its 'grinder of teeth' on the rumor that Grendel was born with bad dreams (many trolls have the ability to see the future in limited ways, although its almost never useful to the troll)


on the whole the movie reminded me of a while ago i caught part of an episode of 'king of the hill' (i have years ago stopped watching, its mostly a parade of politically correct stupidity clashing with redneck stupidity) where the school was putting on a play of the Alamo. hank was offended because the school was portraying people who died bravely as a bunch of wusses who had severe mental problems, waved white flags at a French level aptitude, and were somewhat gender confused in a Richard Simmons kind of way. true, we have no way of knowing exactly what was going on at the Alamo in its last hours, what each person was thinking, and how much of it was changed on purpose when it was written down, but it remains the same that brave men died. the same is true here, we do not know all the details of what happened when Beowulf became a hero, and this is merely a look deeper into things, more into that a hero can still be a human and is quite fallible.


now to address the previously mentioned issues before i bring up my own

I, however, didn't like the fact that they gave the dragon a Smaug-like weak point, either.

funny you should say that, but the Beowulf saga is one of 3 classic references to dragon slaying, all of which agree on the correct way to slay a dragon that we can assume is the most 'accurate', Tolkien himself borrowed heavily on both Beowulf saga and the Ring saga, which contains the story of another famous dragon slayer Sigurd. in all three cases the dragon slayer found a trail the dragon traveled frequently, either to hunt or drink or whatever, and dug two pits. one shallow to crouch in, the other deep for the blood (many other legends agree that the blood of a dragon is either poison or acid or both, except the Sigurd saga which claims it grands invulnerability to those who bathe in it) to flow in. laying in wait (i would assume hidden, but then again the dragon probably does not care about pot holes) the slayer would take a sword or spear and jab upwards into the dragons soft underbelly, any portion will do and the weak spot is essentially the entire lower half of the dragon. normally you cant reach there, as the dragon is either laying on it or fifty feet in the air, so the pit method is just about the only way to do it.

chalk that 'inaccuracy' to drama and storytelling, as the mighty hero waiting for a few hours in a pit to sucker punch the dragon does not really have the same kick as an areal battle that requires you to dislocate your own arm.

Beowulf would have known that he was virtually assured of being offered kingship uopn returning home--he killed a monster who was responsible for the deaths of 131,400 men.  You know what you get for that?  You get to be king.

i would assume 'king' means 'king of twenty four men, eighty nine women, five goats, and three quarters of a horse', a killing spree like that can depopulate even the most horny of lands, although i would assume at least half or more of the victims were captured Slavs the locals kept.

Fun fact- the word 'slave' actually comes from 'slav', as in this specific time almost all slaves were Slavic people captured by Norsemen and sold to open markets in the 'near east'. this is were a good chunk of the gold the Norsemen have comes from, but don't worry too much they were usually treated pretty good and had a decent chance to go free.

on a side note many scholars believe that Grendel's mother was in fact a dragon, for some reason dragons in early Europe had the strange characteristic that the assumed females walked on their hind legs, and lead to many Germanic stories about the 'devils grandmother' who is a female dragon/hag. as such its traditional for the slayer of a dragon to get half the kingdom and most of a princess, this standard fee may have been doubled to the whole kingdom as Beowulf actually killed two monsters.


okay, on to my own observations.

inaccuracies
- king Hrothgar claims to have taken the horn from the dragon Fafnir, which if you pay attention is the name of the dragon in the sigurd saga, and is actually the son of a dwarf who transformed into a dragon as a symbol of his greed. if my mythology knowledge is correct Fafnir should have been skewered and had his heart eaten about three or four hundred years before Beowulf, but the Ring saga did not really include much in the way of dating so i could be off.

- the large stone towers in Herot, such architecture looked cool but was way beyond the ability of the time to stack stone

- after facing Grendel's mother Beowulf chopped off her head and brought it back, not Grendel's. aw hey, there goes the plotline...

- the fen where the monstrous duo lived was not up a mountain, in fact Herot was practically on the fen itself

- Beowulf was supposed to have died in a different way, specifically throwing himself in front of his beloved second in command to protect him from the dragons fire. Beowulf was not stupid, he brought a nice big band of cronies to tackle the dragon. the odd point i make here is that if Beowulf had not died in THIS way the story would never have stuck like it did, up until then Beowulf fought for his own interests and was rewarded, but here he sacrifices himself and becomes a 'true' hero.

accuracies
- a distinct lack of horny helmets, this is an instant kill for anything resembling accuracy and im glad they could not be found

- everything in Herot other then the tower, i mean it, that town was impressively accurate. the case they kept the horn in was a great example of the woodwork of the time, after all if for 5 months out of the year you cant even go outside due to the five feet of snow you have to keep busy and whittling is just as good as anything else

- yes, Beowulf's sword did melt, the blood of Grendel's mother was so acidic that the sword he used was mostly non existent after an hour

- the golden mead of king Hrothgar was famous, Norsemen came from all over Scandinavia to taste it. this is the whole reason Herot was built, and a sourse of much wealth.

- the danish/denmark branch of the vikings were the most violent and often indulged in conquest, random battles, and good natured raiding. while the Norwegian vikings are more famous they tended to be more traders and explorers. the Swedish who worshiped the Vanir instead of the Aesir tended towards farming and fishing more then combat, although death in battle was celebrated by all.

- Beowulf did in fact fight a fire breathing dragon, a flame drake. while the encounter happened on the ground in the saga (Beowulf was smart enough to corner the beast in a cave) it did in fact have the capability of flight

- the 'bedmaids' are a staple of the old Norse religion, the Aesir and Vanir were among the most sexually active gods around, and the only promiscuous act they disapproved of was incest. the fact that mistresses were dealt with so casually really does bring out a shining example of the culture

- Christianity did in fact come to Scandinavia at the time, the conversion process was confusing as many Norsemen worshiped both the Aesir and Yaweh. to the Norsemen it made perfect sense, but the romans found it really hard to argue with someone holding an axe bigger then you are. a relic of this time was the mjolnir (Thor's hammer for those of you not lucky enough to know a worshiper of Thor) pendant, which can easily be mistaken for a cross at a distance or held upside down to serve as one intentionally

good moments

- my wife screaming "NOT THE MEAD!" when king Hrothgar spilled half his horn on himself. when the cauldron was tipped over she kinda choked. does she ever love her mead...

- the song 'we are Beowulf's army', and the guy who sang it. i like him. heck, i would have chosen to stab Grendel in exactly the same place he did, its right in range too.

- Jolie covered in molten gold, while i didn't really find her hot i did find it was an almost tasteful way of doing things.

- the humor present was tasteful and well done, just enough to lighten the air and make everyone seem more like a real person

not so good moments

- Beowulf naked seemed to generate places to hide his junk in a manner more fitting of 'the simpsons movie'

- while the idea of using CG to enhance live action performers is a good one, it really needs to be improved. its really more of a full body makeup you can apply after shooting and should not be used that extensively.... at times some of the actors looked like Fiona from the original shrek movie. on the plus side this got less obvious as the movie progressed, the more gritty the actors looked the better i liked it. king Hrothgar's ass in the first portion was a sterling example of doing it wrong, that old farts rear should have been lumpy and blemished as my forehead, not smooth as a boob

- the gore and violence were over the top. in fact just about everything was over the top. if they could have toned it down a bit more it would have been just believable enough to make it a much better movie.

overall

i liked the movie, so did my wife. we enjoyed it, but really thought it could have been better. eventually we will buy it, but its not urgent and we would not see it in theaters again despite being glad we saw it in the theatre.

if i can find the soundtrack i want it




one last miscellaneous, not sure what category it would have gone in, but Grendel supposedly carried a bag of black dragon skin, any item placed inside would have shrunk to allow the holder to carry untold amounts. this is the origin that merlin's bag in the sword in the stone and the bag of holding in D&D both come from

[superluser]

Beowulf would have known that he was virtually assured of being offered kingship uopn returning home--he killed a monster who was responsible for the deaths of 131,400 men.  You know what you get for that?  You get to be king.

i would assume 'king' means 'king of twenty four men, eighty nine women, five goats, and three quarters of a horse', a killing spree like that can depopulate even the most horny of lands, although i would assume at least half or more of the victims were captured Slavs the locals kept.

All the more reason to become king of your own lands rather than a foreign one.

on a side note many scholars believe that Grendel's mother was in fact a dragon, for some reason dragons in early Europe had the strange characteristic that the assumed females walked on their hind legs, and lead to many Germanic stories about the 'devils grandmother' who is a female dragon/hag. as such its traditional for the slayer of a dragon to get half the kingdom and most of a princess, this standard fee may have been doubled to the whole kingdom as Beowulf actually killed two monsters.

You'll have to provide a reference for that, because I'm looking at JSTOR, and I'm not seeing anything like that.  There's an article that says that she was sometimes confused with Echidna, but nothing about her being a dragon.

- after facing Grendel's mother Beowulf chopped off her head and brought it back, not Grendel's. aw hey, there goes the plotline...

He did, however, bring back Grendel's arm, which is what the film shows.  Actually, looking back on it, they did bring Grendel's head back, too.

I can't find a definitive verse that shows that he brought back Grendel's mother's head.  I keep thinking that I do, but it keeps slipping away from me.  If you can find it, let me know.

This is especially important, given this statement:

Roger Avary: The original genesis of the project began with questioning. You know when I read the eulogy itself, who is Grendel's father? Why has no one in academia ever addressed that? Why does Beowulf emerge from the cave with the head of Grendel and not the head of the mother and why was he in there for 8 days? You know these were questions that I didn't see anybody answering.

Edit: If the original had had Beowulf sleeping with Grendel's mother and the Beowulf-poet had wanted to cover it up, the Beowulf-poet would have added something very definitive about the mother's death.  This is why Luke chose to relate Jesus eating a piece of fish, and very deliberately mentioning that ``He ate it in front of them.''

- Beowulf was supposed to have died in a different way, specifically throwing himself in front of his beloved second in command to protect him from the dragons fire. Beowulf was not stupid, he brought a nice big band of cronies to tackle the dragon. the odd point i make here is that if Beowulf had not died in THIS way the story would never have stuck like it did, up until then Beowulf fought for his own interests and was rewarded, but here he sacrifices himself and becomes a 'true' hero.

Indeed.  I have to go back and reread the dragon episode, but the things that made Beowulf great were in Beowulf's heroic qualities, and the film removes them.

[Fuyudenki]

on the Mead...


It always bugs me during the tavern scene in Lord of the Rings, where the patrons are letting half their drinks run down their beards.  Perfectly good drink going to waste.  I don't care whether I personally like it or not, it's just wasteful.

[superluser]

It always bugs me during the tavern scene in Lord of the Rings, where the patrons are letting half their drinks run down their beards.  Perfectly good drink going to waste.  I don't care whether I personally like it or not, it's just wasteful.

Meh,  you try keeping that in your mouth after you've drunk 12 pints of wine.

[Alondro]

Ok, what the heck does mead taste like?  I'm curious now.

but not curious enough to buy it, cuz it'll be a waste if I hate it.   

Oh, and somehow the critics seem to like the movie... stupid critics.

[Brunhidden]

Ok, what the heck does mead taste like?  I'm curious now.

but not curious enough to buy it, cuz it'll be a waste if I hate it.   

Oh, and somehow the critics seem to like the movie... stupid critics.

mead is one of the classic drinks, but you can find diffrent versions. traditional mead was wine made from honey, was sweet and had a kick to it but was both the every day drink and a celebratory drink. there also exists other meads which are white wine flavored with honey, and kinda suck a little. for some reason most of the mead i find in stores comes from scottland, i dunno why.

its worth a try, but you can only find it in wine bottle size.

i would assume most critics are the kind of person who would have hated it if it were accurate, and could not stand a movie without nudity and forced drama including who is whos kid. keep in mind these are the critics who often say they hate good movies, love bad movies, and kind of seem to base their review on what they ate that morning combined with a coin flip and a cock fight.

[superluser]

Oh, and somehow the critics seem to like the movie... stupid critics.

I want to see Maltin's review.

Especially since he liked Waterworld more than The Shawshank Redemption.

[Alondro]

keep in mind these are the critics who often say they hate good movies, love bad movies, and kind of seem to base their review on what they ate that morning combined with a coin flip and a cock fight.

Huh-huh-huh uh-huh-huh-huh... 'cock fight'... huh-huh-huh... you said 'cock'.   

Oddly, Bevis and Butthead might have liked the movie too with the nudie scene and whatnot.   

[Brunhidden]

the gore would turn them on, the naked guy would freak them out for fear of 'dong', and after the jolie scene they would freeze solid and not move the rest of the day