27/08/07 [#811] Destania: Rapist, torturer... author?

[Alondro]

*Charline smirks, looking up from her piles of flow charts*  A cubi teacher often has to teach by example.  You know how Being teachers usually do a sample problem in math on the blackboard to show the students how it's done?  Same thing with cubi!  Don't forget Kitty's classroom with the bloody beaters.  

[nikename2]

Heh, saw that one coming.   

K enough of that. Invested interest....yeah she probably had invested interest in Abel because his life was pretty much ruined by Aniz, and since Aniz did make a reference to Fa'lina a few strips earlier in Abel's arc, it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that Aniz was also taught by Destania.

You could just imagine their first encounter. Meeting the one who taught the murderer everything he knew. You can't tell me Abel would ever forgive Destania for that, for taking away his old life. I bet somewhere inside his head he thinks it might have ended differently had Des never existed. What's more though Abel had to learn under her tutelage. Can you really think of a bigger slap in the face then that? Of course she had invested interest in him, perhaps she was trying to break him, or perhaps seeing him finally sparked Destania's desire for redemption, through her son Dan. In Abel's eyes though I think he'll always see her as pure evil.

Edit:I think this may also explain why Abel owe's Edward for something even though he never met him. Since Edward married Destania, she never went back to SAIA, where Abel was. Just a thought. 

[Dard]

I'm still curious about the nature of the vested interest that Destania had in Abel.

Yeah, I also thought about this one.
I have some difficulty bringing that strip together with today's.
Well, at least if Abel isn't exaggerating.
Besides: I had already forgotten how hot Destania looks with glasses! 

[Stygian]

Oh, I do so hope that last comment of Dan's was a dig at the forum's mad conspiracists.

No doubt it was. However, note that what Abel says and what is true are two entirely different things. For all we know, he might have an unrequited love of sorts of Destania, which was spurned early and caused him to develop that view of her as a cold and callous wench as a sort of excuse or aid to get over her.

Also, if you ask me, Destania is simply evil. How did she manage to get along with Edward? The answer is simple; all people need some love, even the terrible and despicable. Ask me. I know all about it. Also in support of this we have the fact that Destania obviously hasn't changed. When dragons go and kidnap her husband, what does she do? She plots and tries to wipe out the whole lot of them, that's what.

[Kesh]

Saying this seems to have hurt Abel an order of magnitude or so more than it has hurt Dan.  Again, I wonder if he has read the book from SAIA (which I'm assuming is what Abel's referring to, and not a figure of speech) which is why Dan has suddenly come out with this question.

If Dee really is so cold, was she really friends with Aary?  On a slightly related note, Dee said in the 700 series that she had had high hopes for Abel.  I wonder if they fell out because he couldn't shed his compassion?

I think Abel may be reacting from personal experience. From what we've seen in Abel's Story, he has every reason to hate evil 'cubi. So, when he meets Destania and she's teaching classes in evil, he probably associates that with his own experiences. And assumes she's just as awful as the ones he's run into before.

It's possible she is. But, from what we've seen, she does care for some people. It may be that she teaches classes in evil, while not fully embracing evil herself. Which raises even more questions...

[Zedd]

Oh, I do so hope that last comment of Dan's was a dig at the forum's mad conspiracists.

No doubt it was. However, note that what Abel says and what is true are two entirely different things. For all we know, he might have an unrequited love of sorts of Destania, which was spurned early and caused him to develop that view of her as a cold and callous wench as a sort of excuse or aid to get over her.

Also, if you ask me, Destania is simply evil. How did she manage to get along with Edward? The answer is simple; all people need some love, even the terrible and despicable. Ask me. I know all about it. Also in support of this we have the fact that Destania obviously hasn't changed. When dragons go and kidnap her husband, what does she do? She plots and tries to wipe out the whole lot of them, that's what.

Thats dangerious thought there...Aw well, Lesson learned and all will lead Dan to ask more question. Its bluntly true even the only male of his clain be so stupid for the intake on part of the truth.

[Angel]

Abel go boom.

I find myself feeling like I was just thwacked in the head with a sack of carrots - surprised in a somewhat negative way, but kind of exhilarated.

The fact that Dan took this in stride bothers me in ways I can't explain. But I'm not too surprised about Destania, seeing as Cyra-clan has a pain affinity. (Thank you, Dr. Ink.)

Also, if you ask me, Destania is simply evil. How did she manage to get along with Edward? The answer is simple; all people need some love, even the terrible and despicable. Ask me. I know all about it. Also in support of this we have the fact that Destania obviously hasn't changed. When dragons go and kidnap her husband, what does she do? She plots and tries to wipe out the whole lot of them, that's what.

True, true. But that is still an endeavor of love, n'est-ce pas? It may be twisted with her love for destruction and pain, but there is love in there. Somewhere. I think what happened is that after marrying Edward and having Dan, she tried to settle down to a normal life, but just couldn't, Cubi behavior being so ingrained in her. Edward's getting kidnapped is the perfect chance to have a little fun again.

[Caswin]

*Looks at the last discussion thread* Talk of the devil.

what is curious is that she hasn't instilled Dan with a sense of evil, but she has done a pretty decent job on Alexsi, IMHO (who didn't even have the heart to tell Dan that his mother was still alive by the looks).

I don't get what you're saying here.  "Sense of evil"?

If Dee really is so cold, was she really friends with Aary?

Sure, why not?  Aaryanna's got a soft spot for Merlitz, but beyond that...

In 294, she looks positively beatific...

This may be chalked up to Aary's warped view of life, but I think she'd tend to prefer remembering Destania as being vicious.  After all, I don't remember the teachers that I liked as being smiley.  In fact, the teachers that I liked were the meanest SOBs there were.  Because they made sure that you actually learned stuff from them.

Different kind of teacher.  I've known mean teachers who didn't really care what you learned, nice ones who made a point of teaching, etc.

Who is defining this evil, Evil is a pretty vague and broad subject.

Whoever thinks rape, torture and wanton murder are evil.  That's pretty much evil at its least vague.

It may be that she teaches classes in evil, while not fully embracing evil herself.

Unless someone forced her to, somehow - not that I'd count that out, there's not much that you can in a story like this - I doubt it.

[Turnsky]

i think the phrase "evil" is pretty vague, and a bit too "absolute" to describe anything, too "black and white", as it were. there's shades of grey between those two points, folks. i reckon most 'cubi lurk in varying areas in that scale.

[Caswin]

i think the phrase "evil" is pretty vague, and a bit too "absolute" to describe anything, too "black and white", as it were. there's shades of grey between those two points, folks. i reckon most 'cubi lurk in varying areas in that scale.

I repeat: Rape, torture, wanton murder.  If that's a shade of grey, and I highly doubt it, it's the darkest one there is.

[Tapewolf]

what is curious is that she hasn't instilled Dan with a sense of evil, but she has done a pretty decent job on Alexsi, IMHO (who didn't even have the heart to tell Dan that his mother was still alive by the looks).

I don't get what you're saying here.  "Sense of evil"?

Dan grew up to be a virtuous little Being who set off to right wrongs and battle against evil.
She could quite easily have corrupted him into something more like what Abel's describing, since he looks like he was about 3 when Edward left.

However, Alexsi... I can think of about two strips where Alexsi actually behaves in a sympathetic manner.  Usually she's violent and uncaring.  Dan and Abel pretty much saved her ass with the interview and she hasn't showed the slightest hint of gratitude so far.

Sure, why not?  Aaryanna's got a soft spot for Merlitz, but beyond that...

Yeah, but with 7000 years of practice at manipulation and acting, it's going to be very hard to tell if it's real.

Something that has occurred to me is the bit about Aary taking over from Dee when she retires.  This raises the question, why would she retire at all?
It made me wonder whether she was starting to realise that what she was doing was not very nice.  It might explain how Edward managed to talk her out of wiping him, if she had already been having doubts previously.

[Zedd]

what is curious is that she hasn't instilled Dan with a sense of evil, but she has done a pretty decent job on Alexsi, IMHO (who didn't even have the heart to tell Dan that his mother was still alive by the looks).

I don't get what you're saying here.  "Sense of evil"?

Dan grew up to be a virtuous little Being who set off to right wrongs and battle against evil.
She could quite easily have corrupted him into something more like what Abel's describing, since he looks like he was about 3 when Edward left.

However, Alexsi... I can think of about two strips where Alexsi actually behaves in a sympathetic manner.  Usually she's violent and uncaring.  Dan and Abel pretty much saved her ass with the interview and she hasn't showed the slightest hint of gratitude so far.

Sure, why not?  Aaryanna's got a soft spot for Merlitz, but beyond that...

Yeah, but with 7000 years of practice at manipulation and acting, it's going to be very hard to tell if it's real.

Something that has occurred to me is the bit about Aary taking over from Dee when she retires.  This raises the question, why would she retire at all?
It made me wonder whether she was starting to realise that what she was doing was not very nice.  It might explain how Edward managed to talk her out of wiping him, if she had already been having doubts previously.

And now class I will teach how to get the nutrints out of a persons skull without killing them.

[Turnsky]

i think the phrase "evil" is pretty vague, and a bit too "absolute" to describe anything, too "black and white", as it were. there's shades of grey between those two points, folks. i reckon most 'cubi lurk in varying areas in that scale.

I repeat: Rape, torture, wanton murder.  If that's a shade of grey, and I highly doubt it, it's the darkest one there is.

well she's not a saint for sure, but other than the rape part, the same can be said about General Patton.

[Caswin]

However, Alexsi... I can think of about two strips where Alexsi actually behaves in a sympathetic manner.  Usually she's violent and uncaring.

I hadn't noticed.  All the violence I can recall was provoked.

It made me wonder whether she was starting to realise that what she was doing was not very nice.  It might explain how Edward managed to talk her out of wiping him, if she had already been having doubts previously.

Wow.  A theory I can actually get behind.

well she's not a saint for sure, but other than the rape part, the same can be said about General Patton.

Uh... wait, are you equating "killing random people" with war?

[Turnsky]

However, Alexsi... I can think of about two strips where Alexsi actually behaves in a sympathetic manner.  Usually she's violent and uncaring.

I hadn't noticed.  All the violence I can recall was provoked.

It made me wonder whether she was starting to realise that what she was doing was not very nice.  It might explain how Edward managed to talk her out of wiping him, if she had already been having doubts previously.

Wow.  A theory I can actually get behind.

well she's not a saint for sure, but other than the rape part, the same can be said about General Patton.

Uh... wait, are you equating "killing random people" with war?

it's all very subjective, is what i'm saying.
it screams "evil" at us, but to other 'cubi, it might be something quite different, y'see.
We define her actions by our own moralities, forgetting that as a Succubus, Destania could quite possibly operate under a very different set of moralities, which condones her actions.

[Caswin]

it's all very subjective, is what i'm saying.
it screams "evil" at us, but to other 'cubi, it might be something quite different, y'see.
We define her actions by our own moralities, forgetting that as a Succubus, Destania could quite possibly operate under a very different set of moralities, which condones her actions.

Well, if we're going to go by that logic (Abel certainly doesn't seem to), shades of grey don't even exist.

[Turnsky]

it's all very subjective, is what i'm saying.
it screams "evil" at us, but to other 'cubi, it might be something quite different, y'see.
We define her actions by our own moralities, forgetting that as a Succubus, Destania could quite possibly operate under a very different set of moralities, which condones her actions.

Well, if we're going to go by that logic (Abel certainly doesn't seem to), shades of grey don't even exist.

and neither do absolutes, therin lies my point. 

[Caswin]

and neither do absolutes, therin lies my point. 

Your point was "there's shades of grey between those two points".  Now you're saying there are neither shades of grey nor points?

[Turnsky]

and neither do absolutes, therin lies my point. 

Your point was "there's shades of grey between those two points".  Now you're saying there are neither shades of grey nor points?

i'm saying that while we think Dee's evil, her behavior would be among 'cubi norms, and thus isn't considered evil by their own standards. Saints and Sinners, Caswin old bean, one from one perspective, the other from the other perspective.

while i'm at it, Abel's description of Dee may not be entirely accurate, he's been known to overreact in the past, don't forget. and he was a student of hers, i mean, we've all had at least one teacher that we thought was pure evil incarnate or something.   
So she wrote the book on evil, she can't have been that evil, though.
Something must've changed in her to soften her harsh edges to the degree they have.

[Caswin]

and neither do absolutes, therin lies my point. 

Your point was "there's shades of grey between those two points".  Now you're saying there are neither shades of grey nor points?

i'm saying that while we think Dee's evil, her behavior would be among 'cubi norms, and thus isn't considered evil by their own standards. Saints and Sinners, Caswin old bean, one from one perspective, the other from the other perspective.

So that's a yes?

[Turnsky]

and neither do absolutes, therin lies my point. 

Your point was "there's shades of grey between those two points".  Now you're saying there are neither shades of grey nor points?

i'm saying that while we think Dee's evil, her behavior would be among 'cubi norms, and thus isn't considered evil by their own standards. Saints and Sinners, Caswin old bean, one from one perspective, the other from the other perspective.

So that's a yes?

what are you? the gestapo?  i'm thinking that i need to stop this right here, since it's eating the thread alive with our banter.

[Caswin]

and neither do absolutes, therin lies my point. 

Your point was "there's shades of grey between those two points".  Now you're saying there are neither shades of grey nor points?

i'm saying that while we think Dee's evil, her behavior would be among 'cubi norms, and thus isn't considered evil by their own standards. Saints and Sinners, Caswin old bean, one from one perspective, the other from the other perspective.

So that's a yes?

what are you? the gestapo?

No.

i'm thinking that i need to stop this right here, since it's eating the thread alive with our banter.

I've seen worse.  Yes, there are no shades of grey to begin with?

[Fuyudenki]

I'm surprised Drip hasn't been mentioned yet, as what Abel just said in the comic resembles what the general board populice says about Drip quite closely, just not in as much detail.

Dee vs. Drip: who's more evil?

[techmaster-glitch]

Drip. Hands down.

[CameronCN]

@Amber's rant:
Funny, that's the same way I feel about film stuff. It's really hard to get me to watch anything, unless it's something I've already decided I'll like, which isn't much. Otherwise, all my watching is old Star Trek and Doctor Who episodes. Which I watch way too much of, because I discovered them relatively recently. For some reason, I don't get the same negative vibe off them. (Unless it's a TNG episode with Troi's mother in it. I hate her.)

[superluser]

A good point — we should remember this is one 'Cubi being described by another 'Cubi known to be "just like the monsters in all those stories". Aary could have meant Destania was "a creature of beauty (when in a berserk rage) and grace (when dismembering adventurers)", and other 'Cubi would have understood the unspoken parts of her description.

While this is possible, think back on your teachers.  Do you remember any of them like Aary remembered Destania?  I remember friendly teachers, but my memory of them never changed to making them that friendly.  And I remember liking teachers, but a lot of the teachers that I remember were pretty mean, and I never had occasion to remember them as friendlier than they were.

It is possible that we're seeing Dan/Mab/Merlitz's mental image of what Aary's saying, but I'm not convinced of that.

(And Caswin, I do remember friendly teachers who taught things well.  It's just that most teachers that taught things well were the ones that everybody else would say, ``Ugh.  She's an ogre.''  Sometimes, they were wrong.  But sometimes, the teacher was a real jerk, and you learned because they cared enough to be a jerk.  I also remember one or two total jerks that were bad at teaching.)

Also People put on an acts.. Perhaps shes not really as bad as Abel makes her out to be, he just took her at face value, and that was the "Mask" She was wearing for so long,  Aary perhaps saw through the mask.. partially.. to get a more accurate (( But no not less gruesome )) Picture of Destainia...

This is my theory, right now.  If you want to keep a job as professor of Pain and Terror, you have to teach pain and terror.  And effectively.  I'm imagining Destania played by Donald Sutherland saying, "Don't write this down, but I find pain and terror probably as despicable as you find pain and terror."

Yet Abel doesn't seem to know about the dragon connection, yet he still hates dragons for some unknown reason...

What?  Yes, he does.  In 685, Abel knows that Dan and dragons don't mix.  He also knows that Aary knows this, and that Aary and dragons could mix just fine.

Something that has occurred to me is the bit about Aary taking over from Dee when she retires.  This raises the question, why would she retire at all?

If you're not planning to come back, then you should probably retire.  It doesn't mean that you hate what you did, but simply that you may have found something better.

[Zina]

I'm surprised Drip hasn't been mentioned yet, as what Abel just said in the comic resembles what the general board populice says about Drip quite closely, just not in as much detail.

Dee vs. Drip: who's more evil?

Because there apparently are no other rapists or murderers in the history of the WORLD.

Every time someone makes a Jack reference in a  DMFA thread, I take a shot.
I have alcohol poisoning. Thanks.

[AndersW]

Something that has occurred to me is the bit about Aary taking over from Dee when she retires.  This raises the question, why would she retire at all?
It made me wonder whether she was starting to realise that what she was doing was not very nice.  It might explain how Edward managed to talk her out of wiping him, if she had already been having doubts previously.

It may be that when Edward was kidnapped by dragons, Destainia relapsed back to her old ways.

[Fuyudenki]

Every time someone makes a Jack reference in a  DMFA thread, I take a shot.
I have alcohol poisoning. Thanks.

You're welcome, but I can't be responsible for more than five of those.

[Madmann135]

somehow I think everyone is missing an important aspect to what Able just said and how he said it.  Dan was wondering what kind of individual Able is and judging what he just said not to mention how he said it only proves one thing, able is a nice (hemi-good) guy trying to put on a bad guy image.

Lets not forget that evil is in fact how one views another. 
for example, If you eat a bucket of ice cream you  could feel happy about it because you had all that ice cream to yourself.  Though getting a stomach ache would make the idea a bad one in 20:20 hind sight.
Or two sides to a war. 
Both sides would think that the other side is evil, even though both sides are not evil (it happened in a World War).

That can explain the differences between how Able views Destania and Aaryanna views her (lets not also forget that Aary-kitty took over Destania's position).

Though I do not think Destania was really evil, I think she was more like Able. Putting on an evil front and doing her best to prepare her students for the outside world
(though judging from what Able said she could have used a different approach).

This comic adds more intregue and mystery to the Mysteries that are Daniel, Able, Destania, Edward and how they got together.

also as someone once said, "there is no black and white, just shades of gray."