2017-08-28 [DMFA #1780] - Let me be cruel, not unnatural

[Tapewolf]

Of those, altering her mind seems the least awful, but we have no idea to what extent Mab is thinking.  She could be talking about a total personality rewrite in which case she's effectively dead anyway.  Besides, Hizell would likely take her out anyway if she did turn.

It's good that we're having a discussion of the morality of what has recently transpired.

I wonder whether some of those nice Fae bangles might have been the way to go?

[Ixal]

I have the feeling that the ultimate goal of Hizell was to get Pyroyuck to tell Mab to stop protecting the inn. Everything else was just setup.

[PhycoKrusk]

Of those, altering her mind seems the least awful, but we have no idea to what extent Mab is thinking.  She could be talking about a total personality rewrite in which case she's effectively dead anyway.  Besides, Hizell would likely take her out anyway if she did turn.

It's good that we're having a discussion of the morality of what has recently transpired.

I wonder whether some of those nice Fae bangles might have been the way to go?

Maybe that's the direction Mab is trying to steer the discussion in, so that Pyroduck can conclude for himself that, really, there was no "good" solution for this mess: No matter how it resolved, there was no version of events where the taur did not functionally lose everything, and therefore had nothing to gain by not attacking in the first place.

I have the feeling that the ultimate goal of Hizell was to get Pyroyuck to tell Mab to stop protecting the inn. Everything else was just setup.

That would fall in line with our guesses that Hizell may be attempting a Batman Gambit: In this case, his plan would rely on Pyroduck acting in a predictable manner, which Mab actually seems to be trying to avert with her own BatMab Gambit. Notice how her response in phrased in such a way that it implies that Pyroduck has all the power to make a choice about what happens to the inn, when the reality is that Mab is counting on him not doing something that he feels is not in line with what Alexsi wants.

That's my take, at least.

[Mischa]

As someone who loves transformation art, I fully endorse creative solutions! Mab could habe always turned her into topiary, although trapping her in a painting also sounds good.

[Prroul]

Hmmm... not sure if I am seeing a Link Between Worlds reference here or not with the 'trapping people in paintings' thing. Then again, it is classical Sidhe, so maybe not.

Either way, she's got a point. The 'taur was NOT going to quit, period, until she was dead or Pyro was. Since Pyro dead means bar unprotected... Mab intervened.

As far as why she's being cold(er) to him? Well, consider that Fae and Dragons have this multi-dimensional grudge match going on, and have for longer than Furrae has been populated. Even though Pyro isn't a Dragon (capital D, the ones that vie with Fae over being 'most powerful in cosmos'), simply a descendent of a dragon (lower-case d as in Furrae's local indigenous species which superficially resembles the same), I could certainly see the grudge between Fae and Dragons causing some rancor against anything that superficially resembles their foes. Well, perhaps not rancor so much as... umm... less enthusiasm? Something like that.

[Shakal]

Reminded a lot of "A House Divided" from Mass Effect 2, honestly not too dissimilar situations that come down to the same three choices. You've got a group of religiously inspired followers being directly instructed by their god to kill you/others.

Do you let them continue the killing, make them incapable of action (kill them), or remove their freewill so they no longer believe what until then was a fundamentally held, verifiable truth. You can put different flavors on them, but that's really your only options.

[Rafe]

As someone who loves transformation art, I fully endorse creative solutions! Mab could habe always turned her into topiary, although trapping her in a painting also sounds good.

No. Something even more dramatic.  She should be placed into a deep sleep and set on a the top of a mountain, surrounded by impenetrable magic fire!



And also, I have to add that I'm really enjoying this.  Seeing Mab getting into serious life and death issues is always amazingly emotionally involving.  Seeing the darkness in this world makes it much more real.

[Howl]

Fluffy animal was the least destructive option. Like, nothing to a Fae to make someone into a talking fluffy animal. That way she has her sense of self, but she's thoroughly neutralized and can be dropped into a cage or something until further notice. Plus, what she can do she can undo.

Doubt Ducky will come up with the sentiment, but the main reason she would have had for acting, quote, "for their benefit", is that the way she spoke it seemed more like, indeed, her thinking was less "all for the great Hizell", more "I do this, my family doesn't get annihilated.". Putting up a farce and doing what was expected of her rather than what she felt was right.

But, you know. All war is biased. In times of conflict, a soldier on the front lines does not have time to stop and think of the families and friends of the men he's trying to gun down. You act based on the situation, and in the interest of yourself and your cause. If you don't believe your cause is one worth fighting for, well, I guess you can make something up to try to get discharged.

In hindsight, it was probably more a grievance with Mab acting so casually instead of explaining herself off the bat. Such is the Fae. Wild, and of unspeakable intent.

Wonder if the race would be written differently if the comic's roots weren't so... let's say not arranged. But I need to stop acting an edgelord.

Also, hi Pip.

[SteelWings]

Fae can be cruel indeed 

Their thought process is so utterly alien and lacking of what normal creatures and beings would call morality.

Truely they operate on a blue and orange scale.

[Caswin]

"I... don't kill him? I... lock him up? For a really long time!"

...

Which really shouldn't be necessary for someone whose near-to-last words were to wish her victim luck if he survived the attack.

Hizell, what do you have hanging over their heads and... oh, right, he's operating on "be my son, kill the descendants of the ones who destroyed mine".

(DP: "What can I say.  Not every race is blessed with civility.")

[Dracologist]

Fae can be cruel indeed 

Their thought process is so utterly alien and lacking of what normal creatures and beings would call morality.

Truely they operate on a blue and orange scale.

The thing is that when you're all powerful you don't HAVE to be cruel.  She chose to murder someone for literally no reason other than wanting to.

And Fae thoughts really aren't that complex.  If they were then she wouldn't be able to make friends at all because nobody could comprehend how she's thinking.  People are just trying to project this "estranged way of thinking" to justify murder like it's diplomatic immunity or something. She's not some cat that killed a bird and then left it in your shoe as a gift.  She's a reasonable, rational, high intelligence creature that murdered someone and then immediately starts blaming the victim and the witness for her action.

Her general attitude in this really says everything you need to know about her.  "Hizell sent her here to start a fight knowing that I would kill her so that makes it ok for me to murder her."  I can't be the only one that sees the flaw in that.

[e_voyager]

Of the choices suggested I would have picked trapping her in a mirror. Just left the mirror behind the bar because we don't need her spooking inn customers

[Sofox]

Imprisoning someone in a mirror may be cruel, but it would give them a lot of time to reflect.

[Grey Wolf]

The thing is that when you're all powerful you don't HAVE to be cruel.  She chose to murder someone for literally no reason other than wanting to.

And Fae thoughts really aren't that complex.  If they were then she wouldn't be able to make friends at all because nobody could comprehend how she's thinking.  People are just trying to project this "estranged way of thinking" to justify murder like it's diplomatic immunity or something. She's not some cat that killed a bird and then left it in your shoe as a gift.  She's a reasonable, rational, high intelligence creature that murdered someone and then immediately starts blaming the victim and the witness for her action.

Her general attitude in this really says everything you need to know about her.  "Hizell sent her here to start a fight knowing that I would kill her so that makes it ok for me to murder her."  I can't be the only one that sees the flaw in that.

Closer to self-defense, but with undue force. And the undue force is somewhat debatable.

Not everyone/everything thinks in the same way.

Killing? She's dead. Less than idea for everyone, cruel, but it is a "clean" option.
Statue? Mirror? And I Must Scream. Cruel.
Rewriting her mind? Usurpation of free-will. Cruel.
Fluffy animal? As someone who suffers from dysphoria, I can tell you that is exceptionally cruel.

Could Mab have figured something else out? Yeah, probably. But maybe those options wouldn't be much better, if one really considered them.

Personally, I would have frozen time and told Pyroduck to kill the taur. But, we come again to the whole free-will thing.

[PhycoKrusk]

Closer to self-defense, but with undue force. And the undue force is somewhat debatable.

The level of force doesn't seem unreasonable to me; when you really look at it, it was equal to the level of force the taur was bringing, because either way, someone was going to be dead.

But the crux of your point is correct: Removing her from existence as opposed to... what, exactly?

The thing is that when you're all powerful you don't HAVE to be cruel.  She chose to murder someone for literally no reason other than wanting to.

And Fae thoughts really aren't that complex.  If they were then she wouldn't be able to make friends at all because nobody could comprehend how she's thinking.  People are just trying to project this "estranged way of thinking" to justify murder like it's diplomatic immunity or something. She's not some cat that killed a bird and then left it in your shoe as a gift.  She's a reasonable, rational, high intelligence creature that murdered someone and then immediately starts blaming the victim and the witness for her action.

Her general attitude in this really says everything you need to know about her.  "Hizell sent her here to start a fight knowing that I would kill her so that makes it ok for me to murder her."  I can't be the only one that sees the flaw in that.

You are correct in that, at least here, her motivations are perfectly understandable. This was inarguably the least cruel outcome: She just stopped existing. No suffering, no torment, no angst, no chance that Hizell will pull something on her, just nothing. She probably didn't even see it coming. Questionably moral at best, but certainly not cruel.

[Jasonrevall]

Immortal beings who never have to deal with dying without it being their choice really can't seem to fully grasp certain concepts like the ability to have your afterlife taken from you like Mab just did to the taur.

Honestly Mab probably did it this way to minimize cleanup. If the body never existed in the first place you don't gotta take care of it.

The microwaving the food option for obliteration to fae it seems.

If Mab wasn't so cute all the time I'd be terrified of her. Although that seems to be DMFA in a nutshell. A cute exterior with dark undertones behind the color and adorable.

[Tapewolf]

The level of force doesn't seem unreasonable to me; when you really look at it, it was equal to the level of force the taur was bringing, because either way, someone was going to be dead.
But the crux of your point is correct: Removing her from existence as opposed to... what, exactly?

The thing is, there's dead and there's dead.

You run someone through with a sword, patch up the body, get the right rituals performed, you can resurrect them.  If they're beheaded or burned up somewhat, you could probably get the soul into a construct if you had the resources to do so.  Even if you can't, the fact they have a soul at all usually imples some kind of after-existence or reincarnation.

You destroy the soul?  They're gone forever.  We don't know for sure that that's what Mab did, especially if she has the capability to hit CTRL-Z and get them back.  But 'removing them from existence entirely' isn't how I'd describe killing someone in a world where souls are known to exist.

[Alondro]

*Charline de Lyon hmms*  If Mab had really wanted to be cruel, she could have tied the mythos up and dropped her into the middle of a furry convention.

*Dang... just... daaaaaaang... that's savage from every angle, that is.*

[Alondro]

As someone who loves transformation art, I fully endorse creative solutions! Mab could habe always turned her into topiary, although trapping her in a painting also sounds good.

No. Something even more dramatic.  She should be placed into a deep sleep and set on a the top of a mountain, surrounded by impenetrable magic fire!



And also, I have to add that I'm really enjoying this.  Seeing Mab getting into serious life and death issues is always amazingly emotionally involving.  Seeing the darkness in this world makes it much more real.

*Charline de Lyon considers other horrible fates*  Trap her into a starring role in the "Emoji Movie 2".  *CHARLINE!!  I know you're evil but my god!*   

[Alondro]

Fae can be cruel indeed 

Their thought process is so utterly alien and lacking of what normal creatures and beings would call morality.

Truely they operate on a blue and orange scale.

The thing is that when you're all powerful you don't HAVE to be cruel.  She chose to murder someone for literally no reason other than wanting to.

And Fae thoughts really aren't that complex.  If they were then she wouldn't be able to make friends at all because nobody could comprehend how she's thinking.  People are just trying to project this "estranged way of thinking" to justify murder like it's diplomatic immunity or something. She's not some cat that killed a bird and then left it in your shoe as a gift.  She's a reasonable, rational, high intelligence creature that murdered someone and then immediately starts blaming the victim and the witness for her action.

Her general attitude in this really says everything you need to know about her.  "Hizell sent her here to start a fight knowing that I would kill her so that makes it ok for me to murder her."  I can't be the only one that sees the flaw in that.

The more the comic goes on, the more we see that all the characters are F'd up in some way.  Most long-running manga take a similar course.  Poor Dan may end up being the equivalent to Goku suddenly stuck in the middle of "Berserk". 

[Grey Wolf]

Removed from existence could also mean atomized. That seems more convenient than erasing her entirely.

Also, while we know souls exist, we don't actually know there's an afterlife. Especially since ghosts aren't real in Furrae.

[Dracologist]

So now we're justifying the murder of a living creature by saying that erasing her is less cruel than any other option?  How about these fine options:

-Teleport her literally anywhere out of the way.  She's still alive AND she gets to travel for a bit.
-Freeze her in time and store her in the basement.  Dan's not using it right now and then when the entire battle with Hizell is done Mab can unfreeze her and return her to her siblings.
-Minimize her so that she's no longer a threat to anyone and keep her on a shelf for a little while.

Basically any version of put her out of the way so that she can't kill Pyroduck and can't go back to Hizell to be used again.  Mab can't really consider herself to be a non-combatant in the upcoming fight if she's already killing minions for no reason other than showing off her power.

[Naldru]

You might want to review http://dmfa.katbox.net/comic/1027-old-school-fae-tactics-tend-to-result-in-rather-grim-endings/ and http://dmfa.katbox.net/comic/1029-seriously-dont-let-your-friends-become-zombies/ .  The subject has come up before.  You also might want to consider whether the Fae even view existence in the same way we do.

[Grey Wolf]

So now we're justifying the murder of a living creature by saying that erasing her is less cruel than any other option?  How about these fine options:

-Teleport her literally anywhere out of the way.  She's still alive AND she gets to travel for a bit.
-Freeze her in time and store her in the basement.  Dan's not using it right now and then when the entire battle with Hizell is done Mab can unfreeze her and return her to her siblings.
-Minimize her so that she's no longer a threat to anyone and keep her on a shelf for a little while.

Basically any version of put her out of the way so that she can't kill Pyroduck and can't go back to Hizell to be used again.  Mab can't really consider herself to be a non-combatant in the upcoming fight if she's already killing minions for no reason other than showing off her power.

Can you think of these options in a minute and a half, tops?

Option 1: Hizell. Hizell will still destroy her for failing.
Option 2: For how long? Imagine blinking and waking up, say, eighty years into the future? During which your loved ones had grown older, died, and mourned your death besides?
Option 3: Serious body-horror, indefinite imprisonment, and what will you do about empathetic links/scrying?

Mab isn't showing off; she is removing a problem. I'm not saying this is the best way to deal with the problem- I think Mab should have left it to Pyro, but she's not doing a power trip.

Barring something beyond the laws of Furrae (which Fae can do!), that mythos was going to die. It was only a matter of how, and whether more would come after her.

And now another will come. They have a month to figure something better out.

[keybounce]

Imprisoning someone in a mirror may be cruel, but it would give them a lot of time to reflect.

But it's awfully close to solitary confinement.

Locking someone up in a private world, unable to talk to others? Very cruel.
If they can talk to people, but have no way to do anything for improvement? Still cruel.

Our "penitentiary" system of jails was based on religious "penitence", the idea that forcing someone to think about what the bible said / what god wanted them to do would work. Well, apparently the research is now done and this is a horrible system. It doesn't give you reformed, well-adjusted people ready to contribute to society. It makes people more ... "damaged" (don't know the right word). And that type of "alternative to killing the taur" is going to be cruel to the taur.

In this case, life is not the better choice. Life includes the potential for pain from Hizell; it includes the potential of Hizell torturing family to hurt the taur even more.

Hate her power? Hate her thinking process? Minimizing cruelty when there is no real other option really means making sure the taur will never feel any cruelty, pain, or loss in the future. There is no future for the taur, and Pyro is the only one that does not understand that.

But he does understand "one month to solve this before it happens again".

===

Mab is not a "blue shell win" for the good guys here. Mab is going to protect home base (the inn). As much as Fa'Lina is probably one of her 5 friends, that won't keep her alive once the academy's bubble ends. Mab isn't going to solve their problems. She isn't going to guarantee that Jyrras's weapons will be developed in time.

Chaos looking to change the established order, starting from an ignored backwater?

Ahh. She's the quest master? (No, Biggs came up with the idea). She's the old hermit. (... not really.) She's ... ... not really a standard trope, is she?

[Kibin]

So now we're justifying the murder of a living creature by saying that erasing her is less cruel than any other option?  How about these fine options:

-Teleport her literally anywhere out of the way.  She's still alive AND she gets to travel for a bit.
-Freeze her in time and store her in the basement.  Dan's not using it right now and then when the entire battle with Hizell is done Mab can unfreeze her and return her to her siblings.
-Minimize her so that she's no longer a threat to anyone and keep her on a shelf for a little while.

Basically any version of put her out of the way so that she can't kill Pyroduck and can't go back to Hizell to be used again.  Mab can't really consider herself to be a non-combatant in the upcoming fight if she's already killing minions for no reason other than showing off her power.

Can you think of these options in a minute and a half, tops?

Option 1: Hizell. Hizell will still destroy her for failing.
Option 2: For how long? Imagine blinking and waking up, say, eighty years into the future? During which your loved ones had grown older, died, and mourned your death besides?
Option 3: Serious body-horror, indefinite imprisonment, and what will you do about empathetic links/scrying?

Mab isn't showing off; she is removing a problem. I'm not saying this is the best way to deal with the problem- I think Mab should have left it to Pyro, but she's not doing a power trip.

Barring something beyond the laws of Furrae (which Fae can do!), that mythos was going to die. It was only a matter of how, and whether more would come after her.

And now another will come. They have a month to figure something better out.

She, specifically, immediately removed the problem when it was clear Pyroduck could not. And said minion was in the process of being milliseconds away from impaling Pyroduck. I think she left it to Pyroduck all she could: Pyroduck did, after all, contemplate things in the middle of a fight while turning his back to said minion.

[joshofspam]

Looking at the situation at hand, I have to say that it is unerving. But, it isn't like Mab's actions are completely unreasonable or unjustified.

Being blunt, the Tuar's master is an intolerant, genocidal, racist and a warmonger. She might have been empathizing with Ducky at the moment. But she was still going about her orders of her master that has probably killed, what? Thousands? Just for trivial things of keeping the dragons on the top of the food chain in this world?

This is really the problem with the whole thing. Ducky is a pacifist in clearly put in a situation where a soldier following their orders to unjustly murder him is killed by another soldier defending his life. Yes, Mab could have stopped it any number of ways, but should she be pushed to tolerate someone following orders from an intolerant monster who is still on his murder spree that has been going on for thousand of years?

Myself? She was handed her Walking orders. She tried to carry them out. She got the consequences of exercising her free will to follow through with it. Ducky may not like that, but she made her choice. And in Life, you have choice. Some healthy or not.

[Ixal]

You might want to review http://dmfa.katbox.net/comic/1027-old-school-fae-tactics-tend-to-result-in-rather-grim-endings/ and http://dmfa.katbox.net/comic/1029-seriously-dont-let-your-friends-become-zombies/ .  The subject has come up before.  You also might want to consider whether the Fae even view existence in the same way we do.

Hm, could that final weapon Mab talks about in 1027 be the one Biggs wants to get build?

[Grey Wolf]

Myself? She was handed her Walking orders. She tried to carry them out. She got the consequences of exercising her free will to follow through with it. Ducky may not like that, but she made her choice. And in Life, you have choice. Some healthy or not.

Okay, but realistically, what other options did the taur have?

Defy Hizell? Dead.
Not get killed by Pyroduck? Dead, also a sister dies after.
Get killed by Pyroduck? Dead, but no one else has to die.

Or do you mean she had a choice to follow Hizell from the start? To be honest, we don't know that. Maybe Hizell owns her and her sisters. Maybe she made a choice under duress years ago. Maybe her kind has worshiped him for centuries and she was groomed to serve him from infancy.

[Sofox]

Imprisoning someone in a mirror may be cruel, but it would give them a lot of time to reflect.

But it's awfully close to solitary confinement.

Actually, I was just saying that to make a pun.