Beings don't just get the short end of the stick, they seem to get no stick.

[Gildedtongue]

Anyone else seem to notice that the Beings seem to be the racial excrement compared to everyone else in this microcosm?  Apparently the only thing they have going for them is the ability to procreate relatively rapidly, thus avoiding extinction by the more popular Rodent and Lapine methods.  Demo 101 describes them as being weak and magically retarded, and that daemons and succubi don't want to kill them all in order to eat well later.  It would be like an !Kung hunter killing three wild deer, rather than the lot of the herd, just so that he can hunt again at another time, and let the herd rebreed their losses.

Jyrras seems to be very effected by this sort of racial bullying.  Twice he has had his life regarded as purely meaningless by supernatural creatures, a Daemon, and a Fae.  Of all the beings out there, this kangaroo rat would be probably the worst one to pick on, as he's already researching the scientific basis of magics, and all he'd have to do is devise some sort of anti-magic devices, and then there might be some interesting action perhaps recruiting the Weres in an effort to make a last battle.  Gianna might be able to construct something even the Fae might decide is a bit too large for even them, and some people seem to acknowledge it, in that shadow meeting Albanion had attended.  Will there be a battle coming?  Sentient and self aware persons do not find their lives all that meaningless, so yes, at some point there probably should be a very stern lashing back.

Speaking of the Fae, I dunno, this new arc and reading more in Demo 101 kinda shows them as being extraordinarily overpowered (Immortality, Invulnerability, complete magical affinity {Might be a source of weakness, see above}).  This can be all fine and good for creatures who decide to simply leave their former plane of existence alone, however there is a considerable amount of meddling by a small number of them, and that number is enough to pose a threat to the Mortal Realm.  According to his Bio, Albanion decided to completely crush an entire race and civilization because of a Toy, and he also has been shown to have his emotions completely out of check, as shown earlier in this arc, and this latest update.  It also seems odd that a race that regards itself as being all powerful tolerates and embraces such antisocial disorders.  Even Mab's reasoning for staying around with Dan and Co. has come into question.  One could simply say that Mab is treating the rest of these people simply as pets or toys that will be long dead before she would get bored with them.  So, while Mab may be the Superman to Albanion's Zod, it isn't a stupid question to ask what is her motives, since people really don't fight for "Truth, Justice, and the American Way."

[Goatmon]

Well it doesn't hurt that (as far as I know) Beings outnumber most creatures at least 10 to 1.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

More likely 100 or more.

After all, purely on a numbers basis, Kria eats, oh, at least once a week. Bearing in mind it takes 15-20 years to grow a new gardener (to pull something from a hat) that makes, oh, something like 750-1000 or so Beings to feed her alone, in the time it takes to grow a new crop, as it were.

Now, there's some -big- assumptions in that number, but even so, that's a ballpark, and not -too- far off, if you look at other carnivorous creatures (lions, say, or tigers) and the range and number of prey species they need to survive.

While Kria might be tough, can you see her fighting off 1000 Beings without being touched, if they all decided to take her on at the same time? The situation isn't -quite- as unbalanced as it might seem... Sure, a -lot- of them will die - heck, maybe all of them. But she's gonna get damaged by the mob, too. If you start looking at larger numbers, say, and have the mob take on several Creatures in succession, chances are the Creatures are going to get killed much faster than the Beings.

But this is all worst case scenarios, and, as all parties are intelligent, chances are things are going to be a -lot- different...


... just my 2p...

(I admit this is a slightly different argument to yours...)

[Manawolf]

Once again why I tend toward the D&D universe, things are a little more balanced over there, and even the most determined being can become a strong spellcaster.

[Cvstos]

I tend to agree with the gist of things here.  Fae do seem overpowered, and poor Jy seems to have a bull's eye on him for some reason.  Since it's a PG comic, we really have seen any real substantial battles outside of Abel's Story, which has a higher rating (WEB-14).  I'd be interested to know what, say, a group of demons would do when they suddenly find themselves at the wrong end of an AK-47, or, even worse, a heavy sniper rifle.  Dragons, demons, and angels may have tough skin, but a .50 cal can puncture several inches of steel armor.  I'd imagine Jyrras would definitely be capable of creating and manufacturing such weapons.  Would most demons even have a clue what was happening as they get hit by heavy AP rounds from a mile away?  Would it affect them?  Would they even be able to figure out that they're getting hit by heavy, super-fast pieces of lead?

[Tapewolf]

Dragons, demons, and angels may have tough skin, but a .50 cal can puncture several inches of steel armor.  I'd imagine Jyrras would definitely be capable of creating and manufacturing such weapons.

Dragons are described as having an invulnerable hide according to the demonology.  That Abel tried to cut Pyroduck's throat would suggest that either there are specially-enchanted weapons that can do this, or that Pyroduck is vulnerable in his Being form.  In the former case, you would most likely need enchanted rounds to pull it off.

Would most demons even have a clue what was happening as they get hit by heavy AP rounds from a mile away?  Would it affect them?  Would they even be able to figure out that they're getting hit by heavy, super-fast pieces of lead?

'Cubi certainly wouldn't, since that would count as 'Normal Means'.  In all likelihood the same goes for Angels and Demons - the tough skin (or the magic projectile shields I tend to use in my writings) is done on-demand, so if you can take them by surprise they'll be dead before they know what's happened.  (Again, I did this in my writings).

That's my reading, anyway - of course, I'm not Amber.

[Cvstos]

I think that Amber once wrote that Demonology entries were basically written from a perspective of those in the story.  Dragons may have "impenetrable hides", but what has been tried so far in-story?  I'm willing to bet that heavy projectile weapons aren't on the list.  Arrows and swords may be useless, but AP Incendiary rounds?  I also have to wonder if even a 'cubi would withstand an unexpected .50 to the head.  And what if you had a mage there enchanting the bullets as or before they're fired?  Put a magical enchantment on a clip, load it up, and all of a sudden you have a anti-creature machine capable of leveling the playing field?  And as tough as Demons and Angels can get their skin, is it really that much better armor than several inches of steel?  What about DU rounds?  Although they're an environmental disaster waiting to happen, they do cut through just about any kind of armor short of a nuke-proof bunker.

And we also don't know to what level Jy has developed his technology.  At what point would technology cease to be "by normal means"?  If bullets qualify as normal, what about energy weapons, or missiles?  Would a 'cubi survive getting shot by a tank?  Or hit by an artillery shell?  Or, if Jyrras has weapons far beyond what we expect and we were willing to get ridiculous, what would happen with a nuclear bomb?  Or, if he has orbital weapons, what if he uses something really crazy like a GDI Ion-cannon style weapon?  ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzcJ9QblQ5w link to GDI Ion Cannon being fired in C&C3)

[Tapewolf]

Dragons may have "impenetrable hides", but what has been tried so far in-story?  I'm willing to bet that heavy projectile weapons aren't on the list.  Arrows and swords may be useless, but AP Incendiary rounds?

They aren't in common use.

I also have to wonder if even a 'cubi would withstand an unexpected .50 to the head.

Uh, that's what I was saying 

And as tough as Demons and Angels can get their skin, is it really that much better armor than several inches of steel?

Dunno.  'Cubi can crush rocks with their tentacles (and Fa'Lina, with her bare hands apparently).  That's all we've really got to go on.  And as I say, whatever they can do, unless they generate some kind of magical protective bubble, they will only be able to do it if they are forewarned.

At what point would technology cease to be "by normal means"?

Does it really matter?  The basic definition of 'normal means' is something that would kill a human, so anything more than that is overkill.

Or, if Jyrras has weapons far beyond what we expect and we were willing to get ridiculous, what would happen with a nuclear bomb?  Or, if he has orbital weapons, what if he uses something really crazy like a GDI Ion-cannon style weapon?

I'm sorry... I was trying to avoid it but I've just got to quote Future History now... I just can't help it...

"Anyway," he said, changing the subject.  "Ion cannons.  I built a few small ones for hand use - mostly as cutting tools - and some medium-sized ones for the aircraft.  I did start work on a great big one, but I think I dismantled it in the end."

Good, that saves me a job, thought Joshua.

"I heard that," the wolf replied.  "But yeah, I did dismantle it.  After all, what was the point?  An ion beam is a mere tinker-toy next to total conversion..."

"TOTAL CONVERSION?" screamed Joshua, looking even more terrified than when Azrael had ordered his death.

[Cvstos]

AP (anti-proton) weapons are powerful but extremely expensive and will remain so for the foreseeable future.  And ultimately they're something you want to avoid using unless you have half a mind to blow up the whole damn planet.  Forget killing cubi with those - such devices are true doomsday bombs.  Kind of pointless to talk about being vs creature imbalances when the whole planet has been vaporized.  And if you do start to get such weapons, there's also the threat of other super-high-end technologies. 

You don't have to go big to get deadly.  Nano-viruses might even be more lethal.  And I don't mean your garden variety bug, but an artificial virus targeted specifically at creatures.  Something that might not even technically be alive, but a machine that targets the DNA of whatever body it enters.  If it doesn't like what it sees, it starts modifying the genetic code.  Eventually, the body starts fighting itself as it sees other cells as hostile, and the victim's own body rips itself apart cell by cell. By the time they figured out just what was going on, it'd likely be too late.  Of course, that begs the question: Do creatures have DNA?  Creature-being hybrids suggest yes.

[Gildedtongue]

Tank rounds against an individual is not only overkill, it actually doesn't work, as it doesn't take a particularly athletic person do outmanoeuvre a cannon.

As far as the current technology goes, it seems that beings are approximately in the atomic age (1944-1970), but rather than funds and research going into a space age, they've gone into robots and machinery.  A decent, recent film to compare it to would be Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow.  Jyrras has developed a heavy machine gun and either a laser or other sort of heavy cannon.  He's also designed complex robotics.  A good deal of his research has been on the scientific uses of magic, so, again, he has the possible means.  It's just that he, at the moment, has no motive, but it seems that certain persons seem to enjoy goading him.

[Naldru]

AP (anti-proton) weapons are powerful but extremely expensive and will remain so for the foreseeable future.  And ultimately they're something you want to avoid using unless you have half a mind to blow up the whole damn planet.  Forget killing cubi with those - such devices are true doomsday bombs.  Kind of pointless to talk about being vs creature imbalances when the whole planet has been vaporized.  And if you do start to get such weapons, there's also the threat of other super-high-end technologies. 

There was a reference to AP rounds above, but I believe that that was referring to armor piercing, not anti-proton.

[Cvstos]

Actually, the AP, or armor-piercing, reference was mine as well.  I made sure to be specific about Anti-Proton weapons when Tapewolf started talking total conversion, which implies anti-matter, or more likely just anti-protons.

Gildedtongue: Outrunning a cannon is one thing.  Outrunning a tank round that tracks it's target is another.  Also, it becomes easier for the cannon to track as distance increases. 

[Naldru]

Gildedtongue: Outrunning a cannon is one thing.  Outrunning a tank round that tracks it's target is another.  Also, it becomes easier for the cannon to track as distance increases. 

However, zig-zagging becomes more effective as the distance increases.

[Tapewolf]

AP (anti-proton) weapons are powerful but extremely expensive and will remain so for the foreseeable future.  And ultimately they're something you want to avoid using unless you have half a mind to blow up the whole damn planet.  Forget killing cubi with those - such devices are true doomsday bombs.

Oh, indeed.  In fact the very next line from my fic is:

"Yes.  Total mass-to-energy conversion!  I could weaponise it of course, but frankly that would suck.  Despite the many pogroms against 'Cubi and other Creatures, I still believe Furrae is too beautiful for doomsday weapons.  No... I've been developing it as a power source."

You don't have to go big to get deadly.  Nano-viruses might even be more lethal.  And I don't mean your garden variety bug, but an artificial virus targeted specifically at creatures.  ....  Of course, that begs the question: Do creatures have DNA?  Creature-being hybrids suggest yes.

Magic would probably be simpler.  It's also quite possible that the races on Furrae have an aversion to biological/nano weapons because that's how the humans died out.

Now.  Creatures do have DNA, but it's not clear whether they use it.  I'm talking 'Cubi in particular.  They start out like normal Beings, but it seems that over time and as they increase in power, they gradually transition to a magic-based metabolism instead, which is why they gradually lose the need to sleep, dream and eventually breathe at all.

[AndersW]

Tapewolf, where would I find this fic of yours.  And do you have any others?

[SpottedKitty]

That Abel tried to cut Pyroduck's throat would suggest that either there are specially-enchanted weapons that can do this, or that Pyroduck is vulnerable in his Being form.

Pyro said himself that Abel used a Vorpal Dagger. Maybe he borrowed it from Dan's wall-o-sharp-pointy-things when he walked in and saw Pyro a few strips earlier?

[Amber Williams]

Peeps seem to think that just because technology is on the lacking, that weaponry is completely nonexestant.  Trust me...it doesn't take a whole lot of magical know-how to make something "go really fast and blow up" to the equivalent of modern day weapons.  Its just...once certain creatures hit a certain point, their innate defenses tend to over-ride.

As was shown, Aniz obviously was still very vulnerable to basic attacking methods...while Fa'Lina would be like biting shatter-proof diamond.  It tends to be a very "all or nothing" situation though...meaning if you can't kill a creature with the average means...you are likely not going to be able to kill them and thus rely on someone who can match ability.  And with one exception, that tends to be magical means.

As for the Fae:  They are total munchkins.  Seriously.  If there is ever a RPG of DMFA, Fae are going to be on the "DO NOT PLAY" list because they are completely overpowered.  Luckily, they also tend to be incredibly uncommon...though it doesn't help that one of the main characters is one so likely makes people have the impression that all 2 million plus hang around in Furrae.  But yeah...it'd be easy to get frustrated with the Fae.  With them running around...playing their Fae games...usually at unheard of costs...

[Alondro]

*Charline grins at Amber's reply*  Like I said a while back.  The Fae can never increase their numbers, while we Cubi can!  We shall rule Furrae in time, oh yes!  Once I have the Tri-wings all converted to Furrancar Espada!   

*acks!*  I made a "Bleach" pun.  I fail.   

[Gildedtongue]

I guess my annoyance with the Fae is that they are apparently the ultimate griefers.  It's the same issue I have with the Q of Star Trek, however it seems that the Fae are not honour bound outside of their own world (True, Q seems to magically show up in Voyager, but honestly I grew disinterested after the beginning of the last season of DS9).

Also, Amber, you mean one main character and one major player in the cast (who constantly refers to a third, unseen, but very active character.)  But, I guess like you said, Amber, Fae are male copulation organs.  Mab's and Azlan's main goal in hanging out with Dan and Co. is just to be entertained.

[Zedd]

*Charline grins at Amber's reply*  Like I said a while back.  The Fae can never increase their numbers, while we Cubi can!  We shall rule Furrae in time, oh yes!  Once I have the Tri-wings all converted to Furrancar Espada!   

*acks!*  I made a "Bleach" pun.  I fail.   

Shhhh.....Theres a sign that says dont feed the trolls...The anti bleach bregade is apon us!

[Caswin]

Gianna might be able to construct something even the Fae might decide is a bit too large for even them, and some people seem to acknowledge it, in that shadow meeting Albanion had attended.  Will there be a battle coming?  Sentient and self aware persons do not find their lives all that meaningless, so yes, at some point there probably should be a very stern lashing back.

I like the idea.

However, I just wanted to say I'm still reasonably sure that wasn't Albanion.  Apart from debatable stuff like his eyes and the shape of his head (darn silhouettes), the gems are very different; this became even more apparent when I actually took a picture of Albanion and turned him into a blank-eyed shadow against a purple background over the course of a few minutes.  Unless he's actually changed his gem somewhere down the line (which actually would be a weird restriction, but this is the Fae we're talking about), it's not him.

Even Mab's reasoning for staying around with Dan and Co. has come into question.  One could simply say that Mab is treating the rest of these people simply as pets or toys that will be long dead before she would get bored with them.

Or just 'cause she's Mab.  And Mab is nice like that.

So, while Mab may be the Superman to Albanion's Zod, it isn't a stupid question to ask what is her motives, since people really don't fight for "Truth, Justice, and the American Way."

Some do. (No debate over "The American Way," please, I've seen it and it can get ugly...)

[Shadrok]

As far as the current technology goes, it seems that beings are approximately in the atomic age (1944-1970), but rather than funds and research going into a space age, they've gone into robots and machinery.

That's about where I was thinking the tech level was too, but then again it seems that they prefer swords and axes as well. Then again it could be that one kingdom is at a low tech level (Mideival) while another is at a higher one (jet age).

From the looks of it they have commercial flights.

[Manawolf]

Peeps seem to think that just because technology is on the lacking, that weaponry is completely nonexestant.  Trust me...it doesn't take a whole lot of magical know-how to make something "go really fast and blow up" to the equivalent of modern day weapons.  Its just...once certain creatures hit a certain point, their innate defenses tend to over-ride.

As was shown, Aniz obviously was still very vulnerable to basic attacking methods...while Fa'Lina would be like biting shatter-proof diamond.  It tends to be a very "all or nothing" situation though...meaning if you can't kill a creature with the average means...you are likely not going to be able to kill them and thus rely on someone who can match ability.  And with one exception, that tends to be magical means.

As for the Fae:  They are total munchkins.  Seriously.  If there is ever a RPG of DMFA, Fae are going to be on the "DO NOT PLAY" list because they are completely overpowered.  Luckily, they also tend to be incredibly uncommon...though it doesn't help that one of the main characters is one so likely makes people have the impression that all 2 million plus hang around in Furrae.  But yeah...it'd be easy to get frustrated with the Fae.  With them running around...playing their Fae games...usually at unheard of costs...

::Notes to treat fae as being like Wild Hunts in D&D terms, or even Leshay::

[Tapewolf]

Tapewolf, where would I find this fic of yours.  And do you have any others?

There are two.  Both can be found in the Tower of Art.  The one I'm quoting here is 'Future History', which is here:  http://clockworkmansion.com/forum/index.php?topic=2274.0
I've often thought it would work well as a webcomic.

It is actually the sequel to my earlier work, the corrected version of which is here:  http://tapewolf.deviantart.com/gallery/
...FH will make more sense if you read that first, although it should also work standalone.  The original series is now the length of a small novel, though it is divided into sensibly-sized  chapters.

However, I just wanted to say I'm still reasonably sure that wasn't Albanion.  Apart from debatable stuff like his eyes and the shape of his head (darn silhouettes), the gems are very different; this became even more apparent when I actually took a picture of Albanion and turned him into a blank-eyed shadow against a purple background over the course of a few minutes.

No, I think it's an early version of him (compare Dan in WFH to Dan today).  It is beyond doubt, a horse-Fae who looks very similar to Albanion.

[Caswin]

No, I think it's an early version of him (compare Dan in WFH to Dan today).  It is beyond doubt, a horse-Fae who looks very similar to Albanion.

Dan's got a slightly different hairstyle and a different outfit that got changed in-story.

Hm...
Weird, whoever he is, he looks pretty different from the last time I looked at that strip o_O.  Unless either mine eyes or mine monitor deceive me, his nose doesn't look especially horselike, but for some reason, his forehead gem is suddenly looking a good deal more teardrop shaped.  That black bit on the right is confusing me.

(Cross-Examination!)

[multani82]

I had to reply about this. yes cubi can die from heavy firearms if their not as powerful as fa'lina. Dragons can succumb to heavy artillery as well probably, if you have enough. There was a comic strip about the council concerned with jyras's inventions. I'm sure they're aware that beings are comming to the point where they can prove a major threat if they should ever feel threatened of the creatures, cubi, dragons, so on in the world.

[Tapewolf]

Weird, whoever he is, he looks pretty different from the last time I looked at that strip o_O.  Unless either mine eyes or mine monitor deceive me, his nose doesn't look especially horselike, but for some reason, his forehead gem is suddenly looking a good deal more teardrop shaped.  That black bit on the right is confusing me.
(Cross-Examination!)

This doesn't give us much more detail than we already have, so I'm going to risk it.  I'm not putting up any of the others at this point, because I don't think Amber wanted that.  In any case, here's yon horse guy:


http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k216/tapewolf/dmfa/council_horse.jpg

[Rithm Alfortele]

My own 2 cents on this subject...

Albanion is (practically) bipolar.  He does NOT account for the entire Fae race
Mab probably hangs around Dan and the others because they're her friends, probably.  Plus, it's shown (and said) that she and Dan are childhood friends (which makes her really freakin' young for an immortal) and I'm pretty sure that she's not into the whole "better than beings" thing.

Even Kria seems to somewhat recognize Beings as something a little closer to (although not quite actually) equals, although she does tend to eat them... when Jyrras attacked her, she actually gained an odd kind of respect for him(*cough*shehasthehotsforhim*cough*).
Although she tends to prefer beings for mates anyways (Seriously... first the bull... now Jyrras.)
Which... Freud would have a field day in this scenario.

Also, I think everyone underestimates the power of magical weapons, or even just plain weapons.  Dark Pegasus, a powerful demon, was taken down with a sword.  There's nothing to indicate it's even a magical sword.  Yet he was still taken down with what we assume is one slash.

And one more thing... some creatures make friends with beings.  Now, if your friend was being attacked by another creature... wouldn't you be wanting to interfere?

Finally...
As far as dragons go... why would you want to kill them?    They're not doing anything... besides holding Dan's father captive... but we've only heard one side of that story >>

*is a huge dragon fan, if you can't tell*

[Fresnor]

Question I have, is how much more of a threat Jyrras would be to the fae if he somehow found a technological means of destroying souls, ie. a techno-Ragnablade.

[Amber Williams]

Question I have, is how much more of a threat Jyrras would be to the fae if he somehow found a technological means of destroying souls, ie. a techno-Ragnablade.

Probably not much of one.  The Fae work on a whole different wavelength than the average being or creature.   Their "souls" aren't really souls when one gets down to the nitty gritty...its just the closest term one can use to describe it that the average person on the street would understand.

Really a device like that would probably just put him on a technological level to the magic-equivalent of soul-stealing/destroying...so he'd be on Cubi/Demon/Angel/etc level.


--------
And really...it isn't so much what weapons Jyrras makes so much as what he's putting into them...if anything at all...that causes a potential concern. 

There are plenty of creatures that could likely be taken out with a bullet.  And likely those same creatures could be taken out with a sword.  When magic is a factor, it tends to add a different level than "oh his skin is tougher than normal" which makes the comparison to large brick walls and such moot. 

A final thing I should mention is that while it seems creatures are just waltzing all over the place...keep in mind that the setting and central characters DMFA focuses around are also in a particularly unique spot.  This is where the action is happening, and where its easy to gain a negative impression of some of the locale due to the way they are acting towards the main cast.

It isn't necessarily the same story everywhere else.