Atheism is a religion

[PencilinHand]

Originally posted as a part of 'A tad sadistic...'.
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Religion is a delicate and a complicated subject because people are fully convinced of and truly believe it. 

If you bought a new car and the next day someone criticized your purchase, you would jump in to defend your purchase.  This would especially be the case if they had a valid point or if they were totally off base you would likely feel the need to correct them.  If you didn't then you probably weren't really convinced it was a good purchase in the first place.

Now consider the degree of passion people put into the likes of twenty some people, whom they have never met and have no attachment with, motivating leather covered balls around courts and fields for no purpose other than to put numbers on a board which themselves mean and amount to nothing. 
It isn't really surprising then that people can get uppity about something that they entrust/base their life, existence, and eternity with/on.

By the way, Atheism is a religion as well, a religion where there is nothing bigger than man individually and ultimately an individual is only answerable to themselves. Everyone is a god to themselves and there is nothing beyond the here and now, really it is quiet a depressing religion.


And all this doesn't even cover religious pluralism, proselytization, or any of a cornucopia of differing but related subjects.

I understand and agree with Amber's choice to avoid religion for the purpose of the comic.

-----------------------------------

For on topic discussion....

I will miss Hannah. The reader in me wishes she had not been killed.  However, the critic in me knows she had to and appreciates Amber's ability to endear the reader with her characters regardless of their fate and have the guts to "end" their existence. 

I really liked her explanation for it.

...
For me, one of the things I try to always remember when telling a story is that every character should be an individual.  It's something I remind myself in real life when I drive down the street. Every person in every car? They have years of life behind them and a whole building block upon which has made them that very person who is driving that car.  As such, I don't really believe in making characters who's purpose it is to die.   Instead, I simply try to make characters who are characters...and it just happens to be their time.
...

EDIT(August 04, 2008, 12:12 PM ): Added a link to the original thread for reference and changed the name of this thread to be more accurate.

[Reese Tora]

By the way, Atheism is a religion as well, a religion where there is nothing bigger than man individually and ultimately an individual is only answerable to themselves. Everyone is a god to themselves and there is nothing beyond the here and now, really it is quiet a depressing religion.

And you were doing so well... atheism is the absense of religeon, by definition (theism meaning belief in a god, and a- being a prefix indicating a negative, meaning without without belief in a god.  I find is disturbing that so many people are unable to grasp that it is possible to not believe in any god at all.) religeon, by definition, is a worship of something, and atheists, by not believing in any god, do NOT worship anything more significant than their morning cup of coffee... you could argue that Starbucks is a religeon, and that many proclaimed atheists were actually members of that religeon, but not that atheism itself was a religeon.

[PencilinHand]

By the way, Atheism is a religion as well, a religion where there is nothing bigger than man individually and ultimately an individual is only answerable to themselves. Everyone is a god to themselves and there is nothing beyond the here and now, really it is quiet a depressing religion.

And you were doing so well... atheism is the absense of religeon, by definition (theism meaning belief in a god, and a- being a prefix indicating a negative, meaning without without belief in a god.  I find is disturbing that so many people are unable to grasp that it is possible to not believe in any god at all.) religeon, by definition, is a worship of something, and atheists, by not believing in any god, do NOT worship anything more significant than their morning cup of coffee... you could argue that Starbucks is a religeon, and that many proclaimed atheists were actually members of that religeon, but not that atheism itself was a religeon.

Yes, I was.  I knew that if I included that little bit someone would dispute it and any explanation was at least a post by itself.


I understand your objection but I think the reason for our difference of opinion lies in our understanding of the definition of religion.

Religion as defined by dictionary.com.
1.  a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.  a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of personsor sects
3.  the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices
4.  the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.  the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6.  something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience

I believe that under these definitions calling atheism a religion is reasonable; though, very, very, unusual.

My comments about man being a god to himself are a little complicated to explain but I will try to explain them in brief.

Man is generally selfish in nature, and atheism implies that there is no real higher meaning or point in life beyond our own goals and aspirations.

The effect is to take the place of the typical and traditional motivations and promises of most religions and by extension gods.

That is, "if you do good, subscribe to these god inspired beliefs, and follow this path etc... then you can live forever in paradise," granted this is an oversimplified as religions differ HUGELY as the exact goals differ widely; however, it is an accurate generalization so the point is still valid.

In atheism man does what seems good to himself, subscribes to his own personal beliefs(white lies, half truths, it isn't stealing if you aren't caught), and follows his own personal path.  Man is his own moral authority and life is centered around an individual(rather than a god). 

Man is in effect his own god on an individual basis.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Man is always his own moral authority.

In a religion, man chooses to cede that authority to someone else; the local parish priest, and, by extension, the pope, bishops, and a book written by some other men. Sure, they might all be right, and there might be a god, in which case, sure.

It's still a choice, at the heart of it all. Man chooses to abide by the rules set down by his chosen religion.

In Atheism, man chooses to abide by his own ethics and moral fibre. Sure, there will be times when it fails. There are also times when the ethics and moral fibre of a parish priest fails, and he diddles some kids; it doesn't mean all parish priests are kiddy diddlers; and yet, various religious types assume that all atheists are murderers and drug dealers, because they have no ethics...


Personally, I think Atheists are just smart enough to figure out how to live without requiring anyone else providing them with direction.

[Reese Tora]

Luke: "I don't believe it!"
Yoda: "And that is why you fail..."

PencilinHand, your highlighted definitions are the perfectly illustrate my point; Atheism is not having a set of beliefs.  An atheist does not believe god does not exist (well, some do... but they are not the majority) an atheist simply does not believe that any god does.

Becasue atheism is a specific lack of beliefs, rather than a belief in a deity or lack of a deity, it falls outside the definition of religeon by the definitions you posted.

[PencilinHand]

Man is always his own moral authority.

In a religion, man chooses to cede that authority to someone else; the local parish priest, and, by extension, the pope, bishops, and a book written by some other men. Sure, they might all be right, and there might be a god, in which case, sure.

It's still a choice, at the heart of it all. Man chooses to abide by the rules set down by his chosen religion.

In Atheism, man chooses to abide by his own ethics and moral fibre. Sure, there will be times when it fails. There are also times when the ethics and moral fibre of a parish priest fails, and he diddles some kids; it doesn't mean all parish priests are kiddy diddlers; and yet, various religious types assume that all atheists are murderers and drug dealers, because they have no ethics...


Personally, I think Atheists are just smart enough to figure out how to live without requiring anyone else providing them with direction.

I should have put 'ultimate' in between  "his own..." and "...moral authority."

However, for your example, where someone to cede authority to someone or thing else and then differ from said authority on a matter, then did they really cede the authority in the first place?

Like playing a part in a play, where you agree to follow the script but ad lib over the parts you don't like or care for.  You aren't really following the script as given to you, but have rewritten it into your own heavily plagiarized "original" work.  
A lot of people do this.

---------------

To Reese: 

You say that Atheism is "not having a set of beliefs," that atheist "do not believe that any god exists," and that Atheism is "a lack of beliefs."

Logically, the first and last ones don't work, you have to believe something, as to adhere to "a lack of beliefs" is in fact a belief.

Similarly the statement that "atheists do not believe that any god exists" is a belief.

As the statement that Atheism is "a lack of beliefs"  doesn't quite fit, a rephrase is in order.
I would suggest that Atheism is "a lack of beliefs beyond what man individually decides on"(you may disagree).

Which would summarize to "Atheism is the belief that there is no god or gods and no external point or beliefs beyond oneself."

Please see my previous posts for details.

EDIT:  Really, guys, I am not expecting a "I find your ideas fascinating and wish to subscribe to your newsletter" response from any of this.  I do think what I have put down is reasonable, maybe far fetched, but reasonable.

[Reese Tora]

"you have to believe something"

why? why do you think it is not possible for someone to simply not believe something?

To whatever moderator might be reading: I suggest that this conversation about atheism ought to be split off and placed in a more appropriate forum, as I'm sure that most of the other posters have no interest in this discussion.

[PencilinHand]

"you have to believe something"

why? why do you think it is not possible for someone to simply not believe something?

To whatever moderator might be reading: I suggest that this conversation about atheism ought to be split off and placed in a more appropriate forum, as I'm sure that most of the other posters have no interest in this discussion.

I didn't say it was not possible for someone to not believe something and neither did you. 

What you said was, "An atheist does not believe god does not exist...an atheist simply does not believe that any god does," and "atheism is a lack of beliefs(essentially)."

What I said was, disbelief in something is exactly the same as a belief in something being a falsehood, that your argument for "a lack of beliefs" is a logical contradiction, and suggested an amendment to your argument.  Finally tying it in with my previous posts to support my statement that atheism is a religion where men are as gods to themselves.


Belief (a):
1.  something believed; an opinion or conviction:
2.  confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof:
3.  confidence; faith; trust:
4.  a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith:*

Belief (b):
1.  The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another:
2.  Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something:
3.  Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.

Belief (c):
1.  any cognitive content held as true
2.  a vague idea in which some confidence is placed;


From my point of view, I don't know if I can make it much clearer.

[Reese Tora]

You are putting words in my mouth; I never said an atheist beleives god does not exist.  Belief that god does not exist is not a logical position, and atheism, at core, is a lack of belief arrived at through a lack of evidence to support belief.

Of course, that's not an all inclusive definition of atheists, some arrive at atheism through other means or for other reasons, but it is accurate in general.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

To whatever moderator might be reading: I suggest that this conversation about atheism ought to be split off and placed in a more appropriate forum, as I'm sure that most of the other posters have no interest in this discussion.

I'm watching. I'm not sure I agree, though. There isn't any other conversation, and everyone is being civil, polite, and conversational. Disagreeing, but civil.

As long as it remains so, I see no reason to go messing things up.

One of the other mods might disagree, of course, but since I'm in the conversation, I must admit to a little bias...

[Amber Williams]

I just dont see why this is something that cant be taken to PMs since I dont think anyone else is interested. I know I could care less about Reese and Pencilinhands thoughts about religion nor them mashing their lil brick-wall dolls together in internet-debate style action.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Maybe it's just me interested, then. I'll split it all off and move it to the Fortress.

Watch that space.

[Amber Williams]

Go go brick-wall rangers. *do da doo doo doo*
Go go brick-wall rangers! *do da doo doo doo*
Go go brick-wall rangers...you mighty debating brick-wall rangaaAaaAAaaAaars!


It's 'ligion time!

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

....

Ok, so everyone except Amber is being reasonably civil. :-P

[Amber Williams]

They see me trollin....they hatin.....

Ok. Ok. I be good now...

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

It was pretty hard to miss, Miss A. ;-]

[MT Hazard]

Religion is always a tricky subject, at it's best in can be a unifying force for good, at its worst its a convenient excuse to kill people that some disagrees with.


For my part I see myself as an agnostic atheist for several reasons

1) It annoys people who think that everybody must fit it one category
2) It allows me to explain my own personal beliefs - that there is something other than what we know though science but not the results of several thousand years of Chinese whispers (some religious literature)

Keep the good bits(peace, harmony, not killing people), throw out the bad bits (I'll let you decide those) and update the irrelevant bits (e.g we have fridges now so porks okay to eat)

Edit: Grammar/ Spelling error found, do you want to check your other posts?

[Mao]

Wait.. was Amber just postin' dirtay?

Btw, I'm interested in reading their thoughts.  I won't post mine just yet, but it's always interesting to know what others think.

[Amber Williams]

Well it wasnt really their thoughts being posted that was agging me so much that they posted in the DMFA section of the forum. There I was expecting to talk comic stuff and possibly about religion in DMFA and instead I ran into walls of debate.

Now that its been moved, its not really an issue and my previous comments are kind of out of place now.


---
But as for what I think in regards to atheism being a religion.  Who am I to tell an atheist who wants to think what they believe is their religion that they are wrong?  Its their belief or lack theirof, if that is how they want to define it, then that is their game. I figure faith or beliefs are up to the individual to come to terms and personal definitions with.

[Mao]

Well it wasnt really their thoughts being posted that was agging me so much that they posted in the DMFA section of the forum. There I was expecting to talk comic stuff and possibly about religion in DMFA and instead I ran into walls of debate.

Now that its been moved, its not really an issue and my previous comments are kind of out of place now.

I know, but I just wanted the chance to continue your 'song'. ;-) 

---
But as for what I think in regards to atheism being a religion.  Who am I to tell an atheist who wants to think what they believe is their religion that they are wrong?  Its their belief or lack theirof, if that is how they want to define it, then that is their game. I figure faith or beliefs are up to the individual to come to terms and personal definitions with.

It's generally better that way.  It's why I'm very careful about who I discuss my beliefs with too, because to be quite frank it's a quick way to turn possible friends into enemies.  They either want to convince me I'm wrong, convince me to join them or convince themselves that I'm evil and that it's their duty to punish me.   However, it's nice to see it discussed peacefully if nothing else.

I am curious about the topic of various religions in your comic book, but that would be something best left to e-mail/pm's given your previous comments about not wanting to touch on it much.  Besides, I've already asked for a bit of information from you as is and I don't think it'd be polite of me to pry more time out of you.

On another note, rather than arguing over the semantics of the words belief/religion/atheism wouldn't it be more interesting to set up standard definitions for the purposes of this conversation and then go forward from there?  Those terms are incredibly vauge (oh thank you English language!) and really, religion is far more interesting for a late night topic than linguistics.

[Eibborn]

An atheist does not believe god does not exist  an atheist simply does not believe that any god does.

I snipped the brackets out of the quote there. Hope that's alright.

Wait, sorry, but by not believing that any god exists, aren't you consequentially believing that no god exists? They seem synonymous.

[Darkmoon]

agnostic atheist

The fuck? That makes no sense, you can't be both an agnostic and an atheist. The atheist cancels out the agnostic (or vice versa).

[Faerie Alex]

I think that part of this debate seems to BE defining what those terms mean. Also though, "belief system(s)" are what my state (on its exams, anyway) insists on calling what I'd call religions, but if we're gonna be defining things, that -might- be different (or not).

I think that trying to define exactly what atheism is is kinda like trying to define what furry is. I could pull up a broad, all-encompassing definition now, but different people (who belong to the respective groups) would probably have as many different definitions.

An atheist does not believe god does not exist  an atheist simply does not believe that any god does.

I snipped the brackets out of the quote there. Hope that's alright.

Wait, sorry, but by not believing that any god exists, aren't you consequentially believing that no god exists? They seem synonymous.

Lesse if I can say something that makes sense here...belief in not X =/= not belief in X. I guess, the former involves an active belief in something not being, whereas the latter merely means that's not something you think about.

agnostic atheist

The fuck? That makes no sense, you can't be both an agnostic and an atheist. The atheist cancels out the agnostic (or vice versa).

I faugely remember some study in which a great percent of atheist respondents said that they believe in God. I think they flat misunderstand the concept. As far as agnostic atheist, I don't really get that either, but maybe it has something to do with thinking it is unlikely but not impossible that a deity exists?

[Reese Tora]

An atheist does not believe god does not exist  an atheist simply does not believe that any god does.

I snipped the brackets out of the quote there. Hope that's alright.

Wait, sorry, but by not believing that any god exists, aren't you consequentially believing that no god exists? They seem synonymous.

There is a suble, but important, difference.  A lack of belief requires no effort, no thought, it's a lack of any state.  Forming a belief requires mental effor, it's taking a position, it is saying "I believe so, this is the way I say the world works"

essentially, by saying "I don't believe", It leaves the door open to the possibility that there is something that exists and has meerly not provided evidence (or enough evidence) to allow a conclusion.

It's like believing in aliens visiting earth; there's a difference between taking the time to say "I believe in aliens don't visit the earth." and telling someone else that you don't believe them when they claim the greys are cloning chickens to simultaneously meet the world's demand for chicken nuggets and sedate the world's population with mind control chemicals inherent in same.

In programming terms, you could say it's the difference between having a value of 0 on a 0-100 disbelief-belief scale and having a null value. Null and 0 may look the same at the surface, but they are functionally different.

[PencilinHand]

Everyone, I am sorry my post was such that it needed to be peeled off the original topic and moved to a different forum.

That was not my intention and I apologize for it.

--------------------

You are putting words in my mouth; I never said an atheist beleives god does not exist.  Belief that god does not exist is not a logical position, and atheism, at core, is a lack of belief arrived at through a lack of evidence to support belief.

Of course, that's not an all inclusive definition of atheists, some arrive at atheism through other means or for other reasons, but it is accurate in general.

I thought I had quoted you and used what you said in context.  If I didn't then I am sorry; however, as I mentioned in my first response to you and as Mowser kind of mentioned our differences of opinion are most likely based on differences in definitions or semantics. 

This is the key flaw with internet discussions, not everyone is on the same page even though everyone is reading the same page.

An atheist does not believe god does not exist  an atheist simply does not believe that any god does.

I snipped the brackets out of the quote there. Hope that's alright.

Wait, sorry, but by not believing that any god exists, aren't you consequentially believing that no god exists? They seem synonymous.

There is a suble, but important, difference.  A lack of belief requires no effort, no thought, it's a lack of any state.  Forming a belief requires mental effor, it's taking a position, it is saying "I believe so, this is the way I say the world works"

essentially, by saying "I don't believe", It leaves the door open to the possibility that there is something that exists and has meerly not provided evidence (or enough evidence) to allow a conclusion.

It's like believing in aliens visiting earth; there's a difference between taking the time to say "I believe in aliens don't visit the earth." and telling someone else that you don't believe them when they claim the greys are cloning chickens to simultaneously meet the world's demand for chicken nuggets and sedate the world's population with mind control chemicals inherent in same.

In programming terms, you could say it's the difference between having a value of 0 on a 0-100 disbelief-belief scale and having a null value. Null and 0 may look the same at the surface, but they are functionally different.

If I understand what you mean here, then by saying "Atheists don't believe in any god" what you are really trying to say is "Atheists(or those who subscribe to Atheism) are doubts of what seems uncertain."

Is this what you mean?

You are saying that there is a level of "neutrality" a quantum state being neither belief nor disbelief that is unresolved due to a lack of evidence either way.

If this is the case, then we aren't talking about Atheism, but something else entirely.

You are talking about fence sitters.  People who can't make up their mind because the perceived consequences are too great either way and they would rather pick their own path, believing that "All roads lead to Rome."

You are talking about Humanism(I think that is the right -ism) a whole other but similar and related topic, where everyone basically "bakes their own" religion from whatever ingredients they choose.

This is far more common than Atheism, and I kind of already covered this angle when I responded to llearch n'n'daCorna.  Where Humanists are authors of their own religion(their own personal prophets and gods) and the details of their beliefs are their own choosing.

To turn a phrase of what MT Hazard said:

...
Keep the good bits(peace, harmony, not killing people), throw out the bad bits (I'll let you decide those) ...

A common belief is, "If I do more good deeds than bad I will go to [insert name here]" with what is good and bad defined as conveniently or inconveniently as one chooses.
Of course, Humanism relies on the belief that a man can individually be his own compass or guiding rod without fault.

-----------

Bah, no one is going to read this long of a post....

[Reese Tora]

"Atheists(or those who subscribe to Atheism) are doubts of what seems uncertain."

I am not quite sure what you are saying there; perhaps you mistyped something?

I am not talking about fence sitters or anyone who things that making up their mind holds a consequence too dire to think upon, I'm speaking of people who just don't see any point in wasting time thinking about invisible pink unicorns.

I think the major disagreement in this dialogue stems from the fact that you believe there is an important decision that must be made, or one is a fence sitter, and atheists don't see a decision to be made in the first place.

An atheist might say that there's very little chance that any god exists, there being no evidence better than hearsay for said existence, but it would be illogical to say that one believes with 100% certainty that there is no such entity.  It would be as much an act of faith to say that there is no such being, and the point of being atheist is that one has discarded such notions as faith in something that is incredibly unlikely to exist.

It's about looking at the evidence, saying "what am I wasting time here for, I could be doing something useful!" and leaving the faith building, not saying "ooh, I think I'll beleive there isn't a god, that'll get mom and dad's kickers in a twist." and just moving to the back of the building or saying, "I'm not sure what's going on, which end to be on, I'll stay in the middle here until one or the other looks inviting." (it can be assumed that everyone who is a theist is standing up at the front, doing worshipy things...)

[rabid_fox]

I just don't like when people show off their beliefs with all the tact and class of an:

UK: Essex girl with a bottle of White Lightning in the back of a Fiesta

US: cheerleader at a frat party who just found out that the quarterback's parents have a water bed.

Check out my trans-Atlantic analogies. I'm awful considerate.

[Omega]

Atheism may not be a religion per se, but many atheists act and defend their believes like it is/could be. Many people are as zeal and selfrighteous in their belief that there is not god that they try to convert other people into believing so as well. I'm waiting when they'll start putting statues and buildings in the honor of atheism. My point is that even if some people don't like religions, they act the same way than they people they think fools.

I myself like religions. Both thumbs up. They are a wonderful way to explain something that we cannot comprehend. Anything that falls of your knowledge can be made make sense by saying that "a wizard did it!" It is the people, who take part of these religions that I loath. The more fanatical flagellant, the more distance I want to keep between him/her and me. A narrow view sees better and small mind is easily filled with faith. Close your eyes and ears and believe that you want the world to be. Personally I think that that's a cowards choice.

Perhaps I'm going too far. My advice is that a person can believe what ever he/she wants to, but should give a second thought how to express their believes. Again, there are not wrong or right choices, but.....


Noah. Not going to finish that sentence.

[Kuari]

My only comment on this at this point is I intend to stay Agnostic.  Don't really know either way what the truth is and won't claim to.  I'm not some all knowing being.  I hope there is a life after death, but can only wait and see...  and hope that whatever god there is isn't an ass like some of the more zealous type make their god seem...  the webcomic Shades of Grey about sums up my reasoning for that.

[MT Hazard]

agnostic atheist

The fuck? That makes no sense, you can't be both an agnostic and an atheist. The atheist cancels out the agnostic (or vice versa).

Did you read the rest of the post? If further explanation is needed after, post again